First of all this question shouldn't arises. What are you trying to say that the past Zhao uses today's equipment vs the diving speed of the past FKK. Is your imagination fair to both players? How about today's LD/LCW super-dive againts the past ZJH with past equipment? How about that? Does your question/comparison make any sense in the first place?
Quite a few people could beat Frost, in fact, Luan Jin, Liem Swie King, Misbun Sidek, Han Jian, Zhao Jianhua but to name a few. Frost was, however, very consistent and hardly ever had a bad tournament. But you are right, Yang Yang had to play his 6th or 7th match against Frost before he could get it right, and never lost to him again[/QUOTE] Careers -Morten Frost 197?-1990 retired at age 32 Luan Jin 197?-1985 retired at age 26 LSK 1975-1985 retired (playing singles ) age 31 Han Jian 197?-1986 retired age 32 Zhao 1982-1992 retired age 26 Yang Yang 1982-1990 retired at age 27 Misbun ?- ? Luan Jin beat Frost in 1983 only after that Frost never lost. LSK beat Froat last time in 1982,after that Frost never lost Han Jian ,quite even,last time maybe 1985 Zhao-Last beat Frost in 1985 AE,after that I cant remember him winning. Yang Yang -only beat Frost once in 1984, then after 1986 GP one way. Misbun?-I think the record is very much in Frost's favour as with Icuk, Frost did lose occasionally in Asia when the stadiums then had no air con. Above are just facts as I remember, correct me if I'm wrong. By the way I am not a Frost admirer, I am just giving credit to his achievements.
Clearly if you want to compare two players, saying "A should beat B without difficulty", you need to give them the same equipments, same environments, right? Otherwise it's not only unfair, it's meaningless. So if you want LD vs ZJH, either both use old equipments or both use new ones. Or if you want LD vs Hartono. Then either both use current equipments and play inside air conditioned arenas, or both use wooden rackets and be surrounded by 35C hot air. That's the only fair way to compare. Now about ZJH vs FKK. In 85-91 FKK beat ZJH because FKK can dive and retrieve ZJH's shots. Now suppose they meet today. Both use state of the art equipments. ZJH's shuttle speed would be much faster, that is the shuttle would reach ground faster. But how about FKK's dive speed? Can he dive faster if he uses better racket with better strings and wears better shoes? I would say no. Because how fast you can put your self onto the ground depends on 1. the size of gravity; 2. your ability to control your body. Neither can be improved by using better badminton equipments.
Why compare players in different eras,its like comparing Usain Bolt against previous sprinters. When comparing ZZH and FKK the latter only outlasted him on fitness. But it would not work in the 21 point system because the 21 point system was designed to give advantage to players with good shots. How can you compare Hartono with modern players, he lived in an era when there was no sports science or video and most of his skills were self taught or learned from coaches like Ferry Sonneville. Even comparing players head to head is quite unfair. Eg. LSK in his prime 1976-1981 dominated Frost,but Frost dominated after his career peaked after 1982 while LSK was on the decline. Even the Peter Gade of 1997 could today give LD quite a battle, but today LD could probably outlast him, that is talking about a difference of 13 years. ZZH definitely had a lot of qualities that modern players lack such as accuracy in his strokes(when it suits him) , anticipation and reading of opponents, racquet skills etc etc which players can learn from.He himself admitted that in the modern game he would not be able to last the pace even with all his skills. I am no expert or coach but it makes sense to assume that modern training and coaching and video would make any modern player better than past legends if they played each other. But it is possible that the modern player can learn a thing or two from past masters in order to uplift their game.
Simply put it this way, The fastest and best attacking player today is LD and LCW could perform some acrobatic dives to save LD shots. Both use same kind of equipment and training of today's standard. The fastest there were during the 80s is ZJH and FKK were able to retrieved his attacking shots. All based on the level of play, speed and equipment during that era. The intensity and type of training they received will mould them to the requirement level of standard and speed they needed to reach. The point is, if the speed of shuttle/play increases, regardless of which era, so are the speed of the players because eventually they will and need to adapt.
Surely that is a bad example, 100m sprint is measurably by time, clearly showing Bolt is light years ahead. Sure they have better suite tracks/Shoes, but I don't think that would make so much difference, except if talking bout sand track. Nevertheless thanks for the continuing info on the older players, this is Badminton Gold or me!
I would suggest that the best measure of a player's greatness is the quality or quantity of important tournaments they have won in their careers.That is better than comparing them on how they would fare against one another as the latter is too subjective.There is also a flaw in the former simply because there were fewer tournaments before 1990.
Before you ask me to justify such a criteria, my opinion is this : A player capable of winning an AE several times and major tournaments has to someone of outstanding ability and calibre. No matter his skill level,fitness or speed or etc he should be able to come up with something to counter whatever opponents. In other words he is made of sterner stuff and is someone to be reckoned with and difficult to overcome whatever the circumstances, able to learn and adapt as some of you suggest. that is my view and I certainly will welcome any criticisms if there are flaws in this argument.
I agree, it is very difficult to to judge players from different eras and as you say the best judgement is simply to judge them in their own era - Did they win? They could only beat their opponents. I would argue LCW only won AE because the standard was not as high as before, but he did win it does not make him great however (remember Hafiz! - j/k I know there is a massive difference!) Therfore on this criteria you would have to judge "great" players as: Lin Dan - OG, WCx3 AEx4 Taufik - WC, OG LD is clear winner, Taufik less prolific but won two of three Major tournaments. I will leave the past players to you!
I find these comparison with past players quite amusing and I just want to add this only. Top Players in the 80s usually find the going tough when they reach the semifinal stage, sometimes quarter finals stage. Today top players cannot let their guard down and have to play 100% of their capability when they reach the 2nd round, quarters ad semis because the difference between No1 in ranking and No. 10 in ranking is small compared to 20 years ago.
That is interesting. 20 years ago U graduates were rare. Today the non-graduate becomes the exception. Does it mean the U graduate of the past is better? Some would differ and say that the U graduate of old and new are not much different, this is because U graduates nowadays have better access to information and are exposed to modern learning methods. What actually is the implication?
Off topic, but the implication is that there is more competition for jobs in society these days. Whether it's due to baby boomers still hanging onto their jobs, or less jobs due to outsourcing, or etc...
Now I would like to comment on ZJH 's style and his influence. Players like Luan Jin and to certain extent Liem and Han Jian had up the pace of the game. Luan Jin was fast and powerful smash. But Most players still fall into category of either stroke players with an attacking edge or stroke players with deceptive edge. Players like LIem and Luan Jin are attacking players, they use stroke play to set up an attack. Rudy and his generations were stroke players who uses attack as a complement. Morten fell into this catergory also. Prakash and Misbun were stroke players but uses deception to out maneuvre opponents to win crucial points. These players started playing with wooded equipments but gradually moved to metal in the late and early 80s. Then come zhao. What so different about him? His foot work did not differ from the others. leaping whipping style smashes? It's already seen in Liem and Thing (TXH) . Sometimes ZJH uses the chop, already seen in Misbun. From old videos on you tube, one thing is very clearly different with ZJH. The way he place his racket in a rally. I have been taught recently by a friend who was a school player in the 80s trained by James S of 76 TC to hit the shuttle when the shuttle comes down from a high trajectory. My elbow should be at the same level with my shoulder, the shuttle falling directly in or in the same line of body then back swing the racket and contact the shuttle always in the centre portion of the body of the strings never the top end. This will send the shuttle back to the base line. I noticed the top players in the 80s doing just that. ZJH on the other hand made sure his racket face always face towards the shuttle and his elbow at almost 30 degress or more upwards from the shoulder. He hits a clear to the back line very fast using a whipping technique with his writs. It also allows him to brush the shuttle to create the dropping shuttle coming down very fast. Of course there was the lethal jump smash. Double motion body movements. The speed of the game went up a few notches with Zhao.
Sonny must be right about Zhao, because Zhao always tells people about the term "trajectory" or in Huayu "Hu Du" in strokes. Maybe his strokes are of a different trajectory, faster,steeper or flatter and harder to see and forcing opponents to react faster.I think when racquets were revolutionised it was even easier to execute these strokes, more so in doubles.Zhao himself or most current coaches should be able to confirm this theory.I think it was rare to see an attacking clear in old games, maybe it was difficult to execute. I wonder if coaches emphasise the importance of trajectory of shots in singles, Zhao always comments on players using a wrong trajectory. His strokes seem to have different trajectories against different opponents,maybe its old hat now, but as Sony said pre-Zhao players tend to have higher trajectories(slower maybe). I must admit that I am unable to see such fine details and compare them amongst different players Anyway this is just a detail in history and probably less relevant nowadays. I only want to dispute one point, Morten Frost was a fierce attacker pre-1982, he simply committed too many errors. Later he changed his game to a more rallying style to cut down mistakes and wear down his opponents.
Thank you Bbn for you reply. I was bored of the polemics on old players vs current players using old equipment and new equipment that is getting nowhere because we dont have time machine to transport these players back and forth to play each other in their prime. After watching several ZJH old videos, there is a clear difference with the way he plays in 85 then form 88 to 92. All that fast steep sudden clears were all there in the later period but he smashes more to end rally fast. The trickery, he kept it minimum and only use it when he is leading substantially or to get out of trouble in a long rally with mixed results. By the late 80s top players knew his styles so Yang Yang and Xiong could hold their own against him and they knew his weakness which is why Rashid caused an unlikely upset in TC 92 semis. It was Yang Yang's software on a Rashid hardware. ZJH commited many errors in the decider because he was frustrated. Of today top players only PG and LCW use deception regurlarly and LCW's game has always use double motion and sudden fast drop or block to the front. But I dont see the quick clear to the back or the lethal jump smash. Probably no player can acquire the full set of ZJH's skills and ZJH couldt acquire a calm and patient temperamant to take him through a tough opponent like FKK and Ardy. Ironically like Bbn wrote, top doubles players today exhibit alot of ZJH's skills, Koo, Hendra and LYD. On ending note, after watching ZJH's training videos and past matches, I have adopted a lot of the techniques in my amaterish double games, I hold my racket high with the racket head facing the shuttle, I use sudden snap of my writs to shoot the shuttle for a back line clear (most of the times it goes out but because my opponents didnt have time to look carefully while back pedaling i core points hehe) and i begin to hit the shuttle some time on the top half of the head and lots of brushing for front play. I still dont alwyas win my games but I am having fun doing these techniques.
Wrist technique is only one thing. ZJH uses it with deception, produces sharp angles with accuracy. He complimented with his furious speed of course and not to mention his on court intelligence.
On ending note, after watching ZJH's training videos and past matches, I have adopted a lot of the techniques in my amaterish double games, I hold my racket high with the racket head facing the shuttle, I use sudden snap of my writs to shoot the shuttle for a back line clear (most of the times it goes out but because my opponents didnt have time to look carefully while back pedaling i core points hehe) and i begin to hit the shuttle some time on the top half of the head and lots of brushing for front play. I still dont alwyas win my games but I am having fun doing these techniques. sonnymak is offline Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message I bet your partner will always be complaining you are making far too many unforced errors than necessary.Hope you dont bet during games,you will probably lose money. People here always comment that playing ZJH style in MD is strictly no no.
..some of the discussions abt pas vs. new players are more apt for the thread below; lots of infos nonetheless: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10581
Human has limits. It's not like if you train hard, you can run 100m in 12s, if you train double hard, you can run 100m in 6s. The "evolution" of humankind cannot catch up with the progress of equipments. That's why dominating styles change.
