LUng problem in 1985? What lung problem? I thought it was Pnuemonia in the early 90's that affected him? By the way thanks for everyones stories on ZJH (my Fav player of all time). I will move them into another thread later today as they are not about WJM...
hi is my favoritest as well. he was diagnosised with acute pneumonia in 1985 that put him out of action for almost 12 months. After he returned in 1986 his physical condition wasn't as good as before his illness but his skills were getting better.
don't understand why this is a problem?? as an athlete, isn't he supposed to give his best on the court as a respect to his opponent? or be hyprocritically / diplomatically give 1 or 2 pts to his opponent for saving face?? if i'm his opponent, i'll rather prefer to earn 1 pt by my own effort instead of his gift... Nadal just beat his opponent (Vadasco?) 6:0, 6:1 in a final yesterday.. and it's very common to have 6:0, 6:0 games in tennis WS. no one said this is a problem. anyway, this thread should be about WZM, let go back to the topic...
Correction : Zhao was beaten by Hermawan Susanto of Ina (who happens to be Liem Swie King's nephew) in 92 Olympics. Hermawan earned a bronze after losing to Ardi in the semis.
Correction : Zhao played in the Malaysian Open in late 1986 and beat Misbun in the final. he really looked sickly. If enough people show interest in this game it may eventually show up on youtube.
Sorry to say it but the closest comparison would be Taufik Hidayat or Poul Erik Hoyer Larsen. Both Zhao and Yang Yang only won the big tournaments,Zhao especially lost in many semis . At that time China kept YY and Zhao only for major tournaments accounting for their absence from the AE in 1986, 1988 . During that era Frost was world no1 and won the most because he was playing professionally. Just as LCW is no.1 but Lin Dan is the player to beat. Problem is that when one is the player to beat one comes under close scrutiny and there will always appear Zhao beaters like Hendry Ho or Foo Kok Keong or even Ardi who simply returned every shot . If you watch TT there's one top ranking Korean ladie's player who plays defensively and waits for the opponent to make mistakes, so much so that there is a rule in TT to "expedite" the game ,to prevent spectators from getting bored. The current rally system is actually designed to encourage more shot making instead of long rallies. It was very difficult though to find a way to overcome Yang Yang and today Lin Dan.
Ahh .. the man who inspired me to persevere with the game for 20+ long years .. I think the greatest and happiest tournament I've seen ZJH play was the Singapore Open in 1992. At the start of the tournament, in a press interview, a relaxed and smiling ZJH said he was motivated and will go for the win. The results during the tournament were a revelation in itself. Watched the quarter's, semi's and finals. The quarters versus Fung Permadi was a masterclass in shot making. You could see not 1 not 2 but sometimes 3 fakes in a single shot. It was simply unbelievable. The Semi's were a bit of a blur now, but the Finals was stupendous. He beat Ardi Wiranata 15-2, 15-3. Out of which at least 4 of the points were 'gifts' from ZJH as was obvious during the match as off court they were apparently good friends. A lot like the '90 AE final against Joko. Ardi simply had no answer. If someone has a video of that match, its well and truly worth watching again.
Totally different style though... If you "erase" ZJH in AE90 and watch Joko's movement only, it makes you wonder how come this amateur-level guy can ever be World Champion. If you "erase" LD in OG08 final and watch LCW only, you are still looking at an exhibition of top level badminton skills/movement.
It's just a pity... After the 1985 sickness, ZJH could never move like he did in 1985 anymore. If this pneumonia does not exist, just imagine what level would ZJH be at during 1985 - 1990...
I never saw this Hendry Ho guy play but I bought (I believe) all 3 ZJH vs FKK from Han and clearly ZJH had big trouble playing FKK. IMHO there are several reasons. 1. Stamina. As FKK can sustain longer under ZJH's attack, ZJH has to slow down before the match ends. In my imagination, if ZJH was playing 21-pt system, he may fare better against divers like FKK. 2. Shuttle speed. If we watch matches in the 80s, it is clear that certain shots, say half-smashes, are much slower than today (maybe due to lower string tension?). In fact it seems to me there is also clear difference of shuttle speed between 1985 and 1990. Those shots are ZJH's favorites. Due to stamina reasons (I guess), ZJH is not a "big smasher" like LD or TH, he usually chose to move opponents around and then finish with half-smashes/fast drops. But these shots those days just cannot be as lethal as today. If ZJH has today's equipment, most likely normal divers like FKK cannot reach those shots anymore. Due to faster and faster half-smashes, defensive players are evolving. From runners like HJ, to divers like FKK, to super-divers like LD/LCW. Let ZJH use today's equipments, can today's super-divers survive his attack?
yes, today's divers, not to mentioned lin dan and lcw, are much better than in those days (better training i suppose?), thus even if zjh uses new equipment he won't be able to get so many points from his jumping cross court smashes ...if someone with good video background can calculate the time for each dive and the half smashes of today and yesteryears then we may have something to see...
I would not conclude so quickly... Today's games are more one-dimensional... My guess is that due to the progress of equipments and thus change of style, players today do not spend as much time working on their techniques as players in the 80s (The total training time should be similar, as I remember even TSF was already training like 8 hours/day). As a consequence, super-divers are facing simpler combinations of shots. Similar thing is happening in MD. IMHO today's top MD pairs are not as complete as those from 95-00. Say compare KKK/TBH with CTF/LWW, the former may be faster at net, but their defence is much less solid than the latter. My impression of watching SDK vs LCW/LD is that, it may not be easy for LD/LCW to deal with ZJH's shots.
of course we can't conclude so quickly that's why i mentioned if there is a good video guy to do some calculation and compare. actually i have been wondering for some time on the speed of the game changing, from old 15-points to new 21-points there should be a difference already....
I believe we analysed some players from years ago to now here: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22557&highlight=Lim+swie+king
How can you calculate how fast Zhao's shots would be if a "peak form" Zhao can use today's equipments?
Everything looks slower from videos of the past, and cameras now have improved the framerates by A LOT.... just like in cricket, where the bowlers from 70's,80's, and 90's were bowling on average waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than today, but the cameras make todays trundlers look faster.
Likewise, how can you conclude that Today's player cannot retrieve Zhao's smash with modern equipment? You always assume that player from the past has better skills and that's very wrong. Taufik (even Hafiz) has stroke that could make badminton comparable to dancing. Unfortunately, this is a game base on winning points. The winner = more skillful, there is no way you can debate that.
I base on observing players who does similar shots. Some of SDK and BCL's shots are quite similar to Zhao's. So I observe how LD/LCW fare against such shots. They do not do very well. But of course, the whole analysis is based on my belief that ZJH should at least be as strong as SDK/BCL, and therefore (for example) if BCL can do a 270km/h smash, ZJH should has no problem too. Skill is different from "looking good". HH's skill is not comparable to ZJH's. For example, look at how much time HH needs to finish a deceptive shot, and how much time ZJH needs to do a similar shot. This young guy, WZM, has good skill, but IMHO still far inferior to ZJH in 1985. ZJH in 1985 is a complete package: skill, speed, agility, power, touch, reach. All perfect. Badminton game is not just a evaluation of skills, you may still lose if you have better skill but your opponent has better stamina. so how could it be that "Winner is more skillful"? Suppose you beat me today while I beat you yesterday, does that mean your skill is better than me today but mine is better yesterday?
i think when we talk about ZJH's "amazing talent" we need also consider the defense skill of his opponents. personally i think the overall defense of the badminton players has been greatly improved during last 20 years. basically they just run faster, cover courts more efficiently and return the shuttle quicker. ZJH genereally adopted the offensive style and his performance would depended on the accurate timing much more than the all-around players. i am strongly skeptical that ZJH could still make so many lethal shots when facing current top player's defense. but anyway, i still believe that ZJH could present himself on top10 list under current competition level.
