question about the front foot and singles serve

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by ralphz, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    11.2 ?? it should be
    9.1.2. on completion of the backward movement of the server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2) shall be considered to be an undue delay;

    9.1.4. some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

    even if the server can do what Simeon and ralphz mentioned about, the server is not in a stationary position while serving.
    It's a fault.
     
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  2. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    To Superlenti, there seem to be three different numberings people are referencing here.

    - badminton forum laws of badminton link, thread 134584 posted in 2013 https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/laws-of-badminton.134584/

    - website called "world badminton" page dated to 1992! https://www.worldbadminton.com/ibf_laws_1992.htm

    - Your numbering not sure what your source is but seems to be consistent with this from June 2016 Rev 2 https://system.bwfbadminton.com/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/Laws/Part II Section 1A - Laws of Badminton - June 2016 Revised 2.pdf

    Ralph/I wrote

    "11.2 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server's racket is the start of the service."

    That was the 1992 wording and numbering..

    This should be (as per rules at Badminton forum thread 134584 dated 2013, linked to earlier)


    9.2(as per badminton forum thread 134584 dated 2013, and as per the bwfbadminton link June 2016 rev 2 link),

    "Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head
    shall be the start of the service."


    Different wording can be set aside as they mean almost the same thing.

    The refs mentioned post 1992 ones are more specific as they say "racket head" rather than simply racket. This doesn't change anything re the types of serve under discussion. And if anything it makes it more clear.

    "
    When you say the server is stationary or not, you mean regarding some part of their feet. , as you quoted the rule, " some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position"

    What simeon and myself/ralph) have mentioned about, which is if a server steps with his non-racket foot while pulling racket back, it's fine, because the serve is not considered to have started, until the racket head moves forwards,

    Also, if the back foot were to slide after contact then it's fine because it slid after the service is considered to have finished.

    Note- very up to date rules can be found

    https://extranet.bwfbadminton.com/docs/document-system/81/1466/1470/Section 4.1 - Laws of Badminton - Version 1.0.pdf

    which can be found by going https://www.badmintonengland.co.uk/about-us/rules-and-regulations/ and clicking "laws of badminton" then scrolling down to where it says "Chapter 4- Rules of the game", then "laws of badminton". The current one is updated to May 2021
     
    #22 ralphz, Dec 24, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
  3. Simeon

    Simeon Regular Member

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    Maybe we should stop at the word stationary.
    During the forward movement of the racket you can start with toes in the air and end with heel in the air, but that has not been a fault as we can know. I have seen only dragging the feet during the forward motion called a fault.
    If you mean that lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket is fault, then that could be easily written to the rules.
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I have heard some coaches mention about stepping with non-racket foot being fine or back foot sliding being a non issue, and that makes sense, because so long as they happen outside of what is considered the start and end of the service it's legal. And rules are clear about what is considered the start and end of the service.
     
  5. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    https://extranet.bwfbadminton.com/d...ion 4.1 - Laws of Badminton - Version 1.0.pdf
    my source is from BWF website
    latest version from BWF
    the same as you mentioned
    the badminton UK redirects to BWF website
    https://corporate.bwfbadminton.com/statutes/#1513733461252-a16ae05d-1fc9

    law 9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head shall be the start of the service.
     
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  6. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    no. it's important to satisfy a legal serve.
    yes. it is
    "lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket" is not a fault.
    If a server does this, he/she is not in stationary position. :D:D:D
     
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  7. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    no. still, it's a fault.
    9.1.4. some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);
    9.3 Once started (Law 9.2), the service is delivered when the shuttle is hit by the server’s racket or, in attempting to serve, the server misses the shuttle.
    9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head shall be the start of the service.
     
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  8. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Look..You keep quoting these rules I agree with. So at this point in the discussion, when this is agreed upon, what does quoting them to me achieve? (and please see the next paragraph as it's very relevant to this point).

    We agree that from the start of the service to the end of the service the feet must remain stationary in contact with the floor. We agree that the service starts when the racket head moves forward. We agree that the service finishes once contact is made with the shuttle. If there is any disagreement here then please say so.

    So given the above, I think we're fine re rules?

    So can you state In Your Own Words why you claim that the back foot sliding after contact with the shuttle would be a fault. If you think it is a fault?

    And can you state In Your Own Words, why you claim that the front foot stepping while the racket head is swinging back, is a fault, if you think it is a fault?
     
    #28 ralphz, Dec 24, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
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  9. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    So we have three things going on that relate to this.

    -The stepping forward with the foot before the forward motion of the racket head (so, before what is considered the start of the serve)
    -The back foot sliding after contact with the shuttle (so, after what is considered the end of the serve)
    -And the rocking of the feet or just of the back foot.

    The rocking of the feet being starting with both feet flat, then rocking onto the ball of the front foot, and finishing the swing with the front foot flat and the back foot on the ball of the foot. (

    All three are fine. (I address the previous two in my previous post, post #28)

    I'm not sure how one reads the rules to allow for the rocking, but it's definitely allowed. Watching some videos of players serving I am not seeing them rock with the front foot or a bit but barely, but I see them doing so with the back foot. and if you can with the front foot then you can add the front foot in. The rocking of the back foot helps allow the hips to turn.

    I have once seen a coach rock the front foot point it to where he's serving to, then turn the hips so the stomach/belly button points with the front foot towards the target.
     
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  10. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    9.1.4. some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

    racket moving backward(some may not)--> racket moving forward --> contact with shuttle --> shuttle delivered

    you can only move after shuttle delivered, not after contact with shuttle


    As stepping forward and serve........you just ignore "stationary position"
    to see if it's a fault or not, you can try what you said in a game :D:D:D
     
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    You ignored this.

    "We agree that from the start of the service to the end of the service the feet must remain stationary in contact with the floor. We agree that the service starts when the racket head moves forward. We agree that the service finishes once contact is made with the shuttle. If there is any disagreement here then please say so."


    Do you agree with that or not?

    Yes or No?


    And by the way, we are considering rules you yourself mentioned

     
  12. Simeon

    Simeon Regular Member

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    Superlentivirus..
    Lifting foot during the backward motion of the racket
    On one post you say it is a fault but on another you say it is not a fault.
    Your logic is also strange when you say that delivering the service is not done when hitting the shuttle?
     
  13. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    "not a fault"--> that's when you are talking about this "some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court",

    but with the "law 9.1.4. some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);"
    it's a fault

    you mean "contact with shuttle=shuttle delivered"??
    you mean the time gap between you hit the shuttle and the the shuttle has been delivered is "ZERO"??
    is it possible??
    racket moving backward(some may not)--> racket moving forward --> contact with shuttle --> shuttle delivered
    the service is done after the shuttle has been delivered, not the instance that racket contacts with shuttle
    my logic ......... is excellent.:D:D:D


    All the rules listed in law 9 SERVICE are essential for a legal serve.
    not part of the rules and ignoring the others that you don't want to discuss.:D:D:D:D
     
  14. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    this is not right.
    the service finishes after the shuttle has been delivered, not the instance the racket contacts with shuttle.

    and for law 9.1.4. ,all the words in law 9.1.4 is needed. not just look the part you want.
    you keep ignoring the words "stationary position"

    "some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);"
    this is what you want to see

    "some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);
    this is what it really is.
     
  15. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    this one??
    "lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket" is not a fault.
    If a server does this, he/she is not in stationary position.

    no rule mentioned that "lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket" is a fault.
    that's for "lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket"

    BUT "lifting feet during the backward motion of the racket" makes the server is not in stationary position.......
    it's a FAULT.

    my logic???........seems perfectly good!:D:D:D:D:D
     
  16. Simeon

    Simeon Regular Member

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    It seems you wanted to talk about lifting the foot both in game AND when serving without clearly mentioning it. We others want to talk about the serving process only in order to make the thread as short as possible. And like Ralph said, try to explain in your own words as much as possible. Discussion with rule chapters without living example is not very useful

    "the service finishes after the shuttle has been delivered, not the instance the racket contacts with shuttle."
    Here you bring milliseconds in to the discussion.. no one else cares about those milliseconds on the court. Let us not unnecessary point of views lengthen this thread.
     
  17. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    the umpire cares
     
  18. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    The rule talks about the service being delivered not the shuttle.

    There's not even a "millisecond issue". The rule defines delivered, as it says

    "9.3 Once started (Law 9.2), the service is delivered when the shuttle is hit by the server’s racket "

    The shuttle makes contact with the racket, stays there for a moment, then leaves the racket.

    The rule doesn't say it's delivered after it is hit, It says it's delivered "when" the shuttle is hit.

    Also even if the umpire was watching a serve in 0.25x speed they won't see the shuttle between the moment before the shuttle hits the racket.. the moments the shuttle is on the racket, and the moment it leaves.

    Also supposing it was fractions of a second we are talking about. And supposing the rule said it has to leave the racket. How many frames do you need in order to see that? 30fps probably isn't anywhere near enough. The human eye doesn't even go to centiseconds (a hundredth of a second). According to google, the human eye can do max 60fps, and anyhow I doubt it'd be conscious of every frame within that second..

    I have never seen a video recorded with enough frames to see the shuttle on the racket for x frames.. I might try to examine a 60fps video to check though!

    Also, I wouldn't worry about a long thread, one character here has a thread going into tends maybe hundreds of pages just on his badminton!
     
    #38 ralphz, Dec 25, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
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  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    It is only logical to deal with the disagreement regarding the rule.. before any discussion about feet. So forget feet for now.


    On the subject of when the service finishes, you write

    The rule doesn't say the shuttle has been delivered. The rule says the service is delivered.

    And the rule defines when the service is delivered.


    The rule says

    "9.3 Once started (Law 9.2), the service is delivered when the shuttle is hit by the server’s racket or, in attempting to serve, the server misses the shuttle"

    That's WHEN the shuttle is hit by the server's racket. Not, when the shuttle has left the server's racket. Not after the shuttle has hit the server's racket.

    As soon as contact is made between the racket and the shuttle, that instant, then, the service is considered to be "delivered"., as per the rule.

    Technically the shuttle is still on the racket when the service is considered to be delivered!

    You might be thinking about when the shuttle is the tiniest distance off the racket, but besides whether or not the human eye can perceive that and a human be conscious of it, that's not what the rule says. The rule refers to service delivered, not shuttle delivered, and states that it's When it's hit by the racket, not after it's hit by the racket.
     
    #39 ralphz, Dec 25, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
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  20. superlentivirus

    superlentivirus Regular Member

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    yes! you are right!!
    I misread the rule law 9.3. :(:(:(
     

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