Pathfinder
Regular Member
Great Analysis Two Beer.
My heart MELTS when i watch this. PLEASE WATCH
- Thread starter george@chongwei
- Start date
Always interesting with difference of opinions
I am curios in what aspect of the game do you think LCW excels over LD if you disregard speed/agility?
Do you really think LCW is more of an attack player than LD? And has more deception in his shots?
From reading the post I though we at least agreed that LD is better in the aspect of injecting pace suddenly in a rally (you frased it "sudden attack" i believe)?
/T
Yup. LD is good in sudden injection of pace.
From what i see LCW is more of an attacking player than LD now. At least this is what i see in 2011, especially when LD face LCW. When LD face other players( eg Sho Sasaki and LHI in WC) , he uses more smashes and attacking strokes.
From what I see in AE this year, LCW got many points through smashes and attacking strokes compare to LD. In fact during AE 2011, the score that LD get from smashes is surprisingly low. ( I forget the exact score though). Of course some people may argue, LD was not motivated or he tried to reserve his best in WC. Too subjective to argue about that, there can be no end of it. But the fact that we outsider do not know, so we can only analyse base on what we observe rather that speculation.
Even in WC, from what I see LCW attacked more than LD. One of my friend says LCW attacked/smashed in respond to LD's control. Okay, i can accept that but I think that was at certain phrase of the match. There was certain time LCW was well in control and went out attacking. It was unfortunate for LCW that at crucial stage ( 15points and above at the 3rd set), his faulty smashes costs him at least 2 points if I can still remember.( the crost court smash to LD left side went wide. LCW was too ambitious with that smash.) LCW also took initiative in the attacking more than Ld in the 1st and the 3rd st. he lost focus in the 2nd set .
In this WC final, if you see the score and the match , LD actually got many points through the net and push to base line! He actually play control game more than attack. He inject pace to smash only at the best moment. I think this is because both of them know each other 's game very well. LD knows so darn well that he just couldn't get many winners by going all out attack on LCW( as you said LCW's defence is superb) like he faces other players.
Well I think you are not wrong saying LD is still very much an attacking player. At least when he faces other players. But I am sure LD choose to play control game against LCW more since last year.He definitely changed his way to play LCW compare to 3-4 years ago. At the same time, LCW played a much more bold game plan against LD since late 2009/2010. This is especially true when you see how LCW play LD in AE this year. Me being a big LCW's fan, I concern and therefore remember those matches between LD and LCW more that Ld against others.
Perhaps that is why I started to form an opinion that LCW and LD started to some what reversed their style of play against each other.I really think in terms of deceptive strokes LCW is better and LCW's sudden change of stokes/ racket heads is something LD can not match. Try to watch the first set of the WC final again, LCW did an excellent return cross court flick that caught LD totally off guard. If you watch matches between LCw and LD again, you will oftern see that LCW's sudden strokes caught LD off gaurd more. I think those kind of strokes are not LD's forte. LCW also are better in sudden net tap. But during this WC final, LD 's excellent net play limited LCW's net tap opportunities.
Another proof of LCW's superb attacking capabilites is just look at how he played Chen jin during semi final of WC. I think it is not too much to say he demolished CJ with attacking. CJ tried very hard to drag LCW into his rally game but to no avail. CJ simply had no answer to LCW's speed and attacking strokes.
RedShuttle
Regular Member
Your observation is correct.
LD has been re-tooling since the Beijing Olympics. It's doubtful that any human being can play like LD did at the Beijing Olympics on an extended basis. It's good for LD to have the foresight to prepare for the next Olympics.
LD has shifted from a power game to a control game. However, he can still unleash that awesome display of power from time to time. That, in a close match, makes the difference between gold and silver.
LD has been re-tooling since the Beijing Olympics. It's doubtful that any human being can play like LD did at the Beijing Olympics on an extended basis. It's good for LD to have the foresight to prepare for the next Olympics.
LD has shifted from a power game to a control game. However, he can still unleash that awesome display of power from time to time. That, in a close match, makes the difference between gold and silver.
I agree, and LD said it himself in an number of interviews. He said with age he cannot rely on pure speed as he did before, getting behind every shuttle for a jump smash, but leant to wait for occasions.
Two things strikes me in his game since 2010 (Thomas cup) : in clears and flicks ('defensive shots') are so accurate! And his anticipation is - when he is motivated - giving him points he don't work hard for.
That said, I think LCW is now so dangerous in his attack, I wonder if LD can go on like this. I believe he will, just for the 2012 OLY, revert to his speed-style. The question is : does he still has what it needs?
ants
Regular Member
Lindan doesn't drink RED BULL. Its poison. Most Red Bull Sponsored athletes drink water or some isotonic
drinks.
george@chongwei
Regular Member
So does that mean that sometimes he use RED BULL water bottle but inside is just some isotonic drink or mineral water?What about Wang Xin and other female player? They just use RED BULL bottle for advertisement or they actually drink it?
ants
Regular Member
It is just bottle with water. Yes in some instance they do drink the actual RedBull. But on normal cases its just water.
Yup. LD is good in sudden injection of pace.
From what i see LCW is more of an attacking player than LD now. At least this is what i see in 2011, especially when LD face LCW. When LD face other players( eg Sho Sasaki and LHI in WC) , he uses more smashes and attacking strokes.
From what I see in AE this year, LCW got many points through smashes and attacking strokes compare to LD. In fact during AE 2011, the score that LD get from smashes is surprisingly low. ( I forget the exact score though). Of course some people may argue, LD was not motivated or he tried to reserve his best in WC. Too subjective to argue about that, there can be no end of it. But the fact that we outsider do not know, so we can only analyse base on what we observe rather that speculation.
Even in WC, from what I see LCW attacked more than LD. One of my friend says LCW attacked/smashed in respond to LD's control. Okay, i can accept that but I think that was at certain phrase of the match. There was certain time LCW was well in control and went out attacking. It was unfortunate for LCW that at crucial stage ( 15points and above at the 3rd set), his faulty smashes costs him at least 2 points if I can still remember.( the crost court smash to LD left side went wide. LCW was too ambitious with that smash.) LCW also took initiative in the attacking more than Ld in the 1st and the 3rd st. he lost focus in the 2nd set .
In this WC final, if you see the score and the match , LD actually got many points through the net and push to base line! He actually play control game more than attack. He inject pace to smash only at the best moment. I think this is because both of them know each other 's game very well. LD knows so darn well that he just couldn't get many winners by going all out attack on LCW( as you said LCW's defence is superb) like he faces other players.
Well I think you are not wrong saying LD is still very much an attacking player. At least when he faces other players. But I am sure LD choose to play control game against LCW more since last year.He definitely changed his way to play LCW compare to 3-4 years ago. At the same time, LCW played a much more bold game plan against LD since late 2009/2010. This is especially true when you see how LCW play LD in AE this year. Me being a big LCW's fan, I concern and therefore remember those matches between LD and LCW more that Ld against others.
I really think in terms of deceptive strokes LCW is better and LCW's sudden change of stokes/ racket heads is something LD can not match. Try to watch the first set of the WC final again, LCW did an excellent return cross court flick that caught LD totally off guard. If you watch matches between LCw and LD again, you will oftern see that LCW's sudden strokes caught LD off gaurd more. I think those kind of strokes are not LD's forte. LCW also are better in sudden net tap. But during this WC final, LD 's excellent net play limited LCW's net tap opportunities.
Another proof of LCW's superb attacking capabilites is just look at how he played Chen jin during semi final of WC. I think it is not too much to say he demolished CJ with attacking. CJ tried very hard to drag LCW into his rally game but to no avail. CJ simply had no answer to LCW's speed and attacking strokes.
You 2 make very valid points. However are missing one very important point. When LCW plays LD it isn't his "natural" way of playing. Like twobeer mentioned, he is very much a defense/speed/agility based player. Yes, LCW does have ALL the shots at his disposal, but against players like Taufik or Gade, he doesn't NEED to use his attacking shots much because his sheer footspeed and court coverage is enough to either:
1. Draw the error from his opponents or
2. Wait for the right moment to end the rally with a winner.
However against LD or even CJ, LCW's "natural" style does not give him much advantage.
Let me explain CJ first. CJ is known as Gill Clark puts it, as a runner. LCW can also fit into that category as well, albeit much less than CJ. LCW knows that CJ's court coverage and retrieval skills are among the best in the world. And it is exactly for that reason that he doesn't play his "natural" style that I've alluded to above. CJ is a very consistent player, not making many unforced errors and he plays much like LCW (lacking a lot in his attacking ability). So if LCW plays his "natural" style, the rallies are going to be long, and he is going to use A LOT of stamina which he obviously doesn't want to in the SF with LD perhaps waiting in the wings. So, that match against CJ, he went for his shots, took the game to CJ and won as a result of it. This though, is NOT LCW's "natural" style to play.
Now, in the final against LD, he employed relatively the same tactics that he did against CJ, and they worked for the most part. He attacked, he smashed much more than he normally would. Why? Because he knew though his defensive skills are virtually unparalleled, he KNOWS that LD can hurt him with his smash, and that he won't win the match this way. LCW knew he had to take the game to LD so he, himself is not on the defensive too much.
Now this is where the "natural" part comes into play. In situations where the pressure is about equal for LD and LCW, this attacking style worked. However, when the pressure is heaped onto LCW's shoulders like in the first set at 20-16, he made errors. He continued to try and force the issue, but this attacking style isn't "natural" so his shots were forced, and led to errors. This is even more evident on LD's match point. LCW TRIED to take the initiative by keeping the shuttle down and eventually made the error because he forced the shot instead of potentially waiting for the right opportunity.
This is where LD is superior to LCW, in addition to the previously mentioned:
1. More accurate placement and
2. Less errors at a crucial time
LD has the ability to play patiently and wait for his opportunity, as he has done most of the time post-Beijing. Or he has the choice to play all out attack like he did in the Olympic finals. So in a match-up against LCW, he can choose at times to play one or the other. None are "forced", he is comfortable in both.
I am not trying to disrespect LCW, he is one of my favourite players and I fully believe that he has all the tools and skills necessary to take down LD, but he needs to become much more accustomed to the attacking style he needs to employ against LD.
Maybe by the Olympics next year, he will have done that and we fans will see a true epic between these 2 players.
(Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree)
Yes you have you points.
LCW is still improving/evolving at the age 29. Most people peaked or over the peak at about 28-30, but not LCW. Look at Xia Xuan Tze, Chen Hong, Ji Xin Peng and even Taufik. At about 28 they either retired or suffer lost of form( the agree of it is another matter, for instance Taufik is still good).
If LCW is fortunate to have high quality sparring partners like LD , he would have improved much faster.
Someone earlier mentioned LCW participates a lot of tournaments and play to his full strength in every tournament and every match but not LD. I agree but I believe it is because he wants to replace certain training/sparring by playing good players in tournaments. If I don't remember wrongly , this system is brought to Malaysian team by Li Mao. （以賽代练）。Before Li Mao, I have never heard of it. Wong Choon Han also did that before.
What I am trying to say is compare to LD, LCW does not have the luxury of relax too much.
Looking at how he plays and his result so far, LCW is still on the rising curve. He should have 1-2 good years ahead of him.
It is of utmost importance now to have LCW trained with doubles players as his sparring partners. It is something that is acquired by doubles players ie push parallel shots, jabbing, quick reflexes & half court push techniques.
For a start, (if Rexy is willing) LCW should spar with KKK & TBH.
For a start, (if Rexy is willing) LCW should spar with KKK & TBH.
But Maybe not ideal for KKK/TBH to be relegated as sparring-partners to LCW, if they want to enhance their game to win OG gold..
You are right and i doubt it will happen anyhow.