MD final conspiracy theories...

[scchang]

the key factor

The final match is really a good show, especially for Tony Gunawan. Why was he able to beat his old compatriots with a partner obvious with the skill not up to him and other two players? Don’t forget one thing, the reflection. If you played badminton on a competitive level, you know how this reflection thing serves you. For men’s double, the reflection is always the variable deciding how the shuttlecock is going to be placed/returned due to the high speed. You might wanna say it is ridiculous since Candra Wijaya and Sigit Budiarto are professional players and they are supposed to be able to get over that. You are partially correct. They still play with their reflection, just the speed threshold becomes higher since they have been trained and competed at the international level for so long.


Tony Gunawan surely had the control on the court since he trained with Wijaya and Budiarto under Hardinata; therefore, he was able to set up a game plan which maximized the strong side of himself and Bach while controlling the damage what Wijaya and Budiarto were able to create. As you saw in the competition, there were very few lifts from Gunawan and Bach; these made their Indonesian opponents have to drive or play the net, rather than smash. In all the speedy sports, the performance depends on how the brain and body respond to the circumstance. At the high speed drive, players barely have time to think where to place the shuttlecocks and can only do according to the intuition/ reflection. Gunawan certainly played smartly to use this to read Wijaya’s and Budiarto’s minds and forced them to lift or clear to create the chance for Bach to smash (even though most of them got sent back, but as long as the pressure was on, Gunawan was able to find a chance to cut in and terminate the play).


Telling the truth, I don’t think most people understand what is really behind a phenomenon and would like to put together an interesting theory to explain what did happen. The sportsmanship seemed to be degraded and I was unable to accept that.

 

[MikeJ]

Hi Guys!!

I haven't had time to read all the above points, but I can asure you that no such thing as a conspiracy between the indonesians and Tony/Howard took place.


I saw the look on the face of the losers each time Tony and Howard won and I'll tell you there was no trace of happiness or even a flicker of conspiracy.

Tony and Howard fully deserve to be the champions. They beat toppairs from the quarters and on to become champions. I take my hat of for that creating a huge upset like that takes balls.


In some of the points stated Lars and I are accused of making no results after Worldchampionships 03.

We won China Open 03 as the first ever european pair, won the Denmark Open 04, stayed no.1 for 11 months after the worldchampionships reaching at least the quarterfinals 14 tournaments in a row, we are undefeated in Thomas cup and Sudirman Cup matches, reaching the All England Open final 05.

Don't tell me our level has dropped that much.

Maybe we don't have the looks of Nathan and Gail, but we sure have the skills.

Sorry, but I just got a little offended here.

Kind Regards

Jonas

Hello JR!

Thank you for giving us your sentiments about this whole wild unproven speculation and idle talk about a "conspiracy" or "game-fixing".

IMHO, this talk is only trying to cheapen the victory of Tony and Howard. They don't need to prove anything. (unless in your eyes, one is guilty until proven innocent). Athletes like them have dedicated a lifetime to get where they are.

It makes one think what the true motives are of those who cast doubt on the victory of Tony/Howard (and the performance of other athletes like Jonas/Lars..........) Is it maybe because if they were in the shoes of Candra/Sigit, they would've sold out? I wonder.....

 

[hunghing]

I am trying my best not to blast at this post at this moment You already metioned, "I never watch their match". Then, how u draw the conclusion about "whatever theory"???

In my previous post, I already metioned, it's not fair to judge the athletes' 1 time performance base on "history", "ranking", "xxx theory", "promotion", etc. If all the results could be pre-calculated with some hard written formula, then, why even bother compete? Just use the computer load all the data, and simulate.

If "higher ranking" gurantee a victory, 1st, we can say Taufik get a "theory" behind him to beat LD. Xie got the same to defeat Zhang. IBF might sent some hitman to beat up UK XD pair, so, they have to withdraw on day 1 due to injury, etc...

Come on, give me a god damn break!!! If u really believe the theory occurs every single time, why even bother to participate in this sport? Or, all sports in general??? Every yr, almost every very often, there's "black horse" come out and take the title, so, all "theory"???

chilll it dude...
i actually got more evidence to show prove my point but im not saying it here now as i might make it even more controversial.
but anyway each and everyone is entitled to our on views.. just dont that it too personal.
cheers man

 

[ants]

JR has already mention it. And Bach/Gunawan really deserve the win. All the players go all the way to the States not to lose but to play their best. During WC 05 the Americans played their heart out.

 

[MikeJ]

chilll it dude...
i actually got more evidence to show prove my point but im not saying it here now as i might make it even more controversial.
but anyway each and everyone is entitled to our on views.. just dont that it too personal.
cheers man

Hello.

I hope you show proof that you didn't manufacture your "evidence" and that they're not fake.

 

[DinkAlot]

i actually got more evidence to show prove my point but im not saying it here now as i might make it even more controversial.

 

[Jumpalot]

chilll it dude...
i actually got more evidence to show prove my point but im not saying it here now as i might make it even more controversial.
but anyway each and everyone is entitled to our on views.. just dont that it too personal.
cheers man

As if you never read my posts, I said numerous times if you are going to make a claim, back it up with facts. If its an opinion, just say it and I will probably dismiss it unless I have something to add. If its a statement, you need to show your proof. I dont take anything personally, but if I see such a strong accusation, there better be something solid behind it such as the "evidence" that you claim to have. Once again, I can handle the truth.

 

[the_way]

Well, i hope that some of u guyz out there can answer my curiousity?:

1) In the 1st game of final, there were a few occasions where chandra act slower went for drive shot instead to kill the shuttle. Maybe he wanted to play longer with Gunawan because he miss those moments playing together
??.In the game with Malaysia, he acted so fast and furious once they know Malaysia pair start to lead them. Even, they can counter attack the hard hitting malaysian, koo kien kiat.

2) Howard defense is better than Tony? Juz wonder why chandra and sigit like to attack tony? oh...i think they just want to play around with tony and again want to reflect those moments playing together.. .

3) Chandra n sigit are amzingly good in counter attack. They can even counter Fu haifeng and cai yun hardcore smashes and attack them whenever they want. Wonder why they cant really counter Howard's smashes??? Maybe Howard smashes are more stingy from Fu ???.

4) Chandra and Sigit lack of stamina, gettin too nervous in 3rd set and Tony outplayed them?????

5) i also doubt why chandra and sigit do not want to make tony stand more often at behind of the court instead of letting him conquering the net area???
maybe Tony is in total control of the game and thats why he can stay quite frequently at net area??? ....well if chandra and sigit do not realise all these things...wonder how they can become world champion in glasgow by beating the great cheah soon kit and yap kim hock.

 

[Vtec101]

A lot of times it's the "suspicion" behind the win that creates the controversy. Look at the countless China player v China player results - mostly one sided or walkovers because of dodgy "injuries". The suspicious nature of these results are more than sufficient to cast a dark cloud over the sport. An analogy - Barry Bonds and his taking of steroids. Even if he never took anything, the stigma will remain forever and all his recors tainted. No, nothing needs to be proven.

Hmmm...I'm beginning to wonder how much Lin Dan got from Indo for letting Taufik win so easily.

 

[marshall]

Conspiracy theories exist because they're fun

As if you never read my posts, I said numerous times if you are going to make a claim, back it up with facts. If its an opinion, just say it and I will probably dismiss it unless I have something to add. If its a statement, you need to show your proof. I dont take anything personally, but if I see such a strong accusation, there better be something solid behind it such as the "evidence" that you claim to have. Once again, I can handle the truth.

Even though the originator may not fully understand this, a conspiracy theory exists and continues because it's fun to take a few facts, add some hypothetical explanations, and come to the conclusion that the only reason that the unexpected outcome happened is: SOMEBODY SET IT UP IN ADVANCE!
I once had a great time telling people that cheese was actually a mineral product found in limestone deposits and that the idea that cheese started with milk (from cows, sheep, goats, etcetera), was a plot of the Wisconsin Dairy Association, who didn't think cheese as a mineral product would result in enough sales. Everything that followed was a product of my own imagination.

Kwun might remember that several years ago he and I noticed that a regular poster on another forum had stopped for a significant period, and this coincided with Peter Gade's absence from posting on websites. We took this single fact and concluded that the regular poster and Peter G. were one and the same, and defended our position. Most other regular posters took it seriously and called us crazy, while a few caught on to the game.

I'm not saying that this is the_way's principle motivation, but defending one's own creation can spring from many reasons and can cloud one's judgement and ability to view things objectively.

 

[Vtec101]

Well, i hope that some of u guyz out there can answer my curiousity?:

5) i also doubt why chandra and sigit do not want to make tony stand more often at behind of the court instead of letting him conquering the net area???
maybe Tony is in total control of the game and thats why he can stay quite frequently at net area??? ....well if chandra and sigit do not realise all these things...wonder how they can become world champion in glasgow by beating the great cheah soon kit and yap kim hock.

If you had actually watched the game, Chandra and Sigit WERE trying to keep Tony at the back, but Tony would play shots that would let him come to the net.

 

[MikeJ]

Well, i hope that some of u guyz out there can answer my curiousity?:

1) In the 1st game of final, there were a few occasions where chandra act slower went for drive shot instead to kill the shuttle. Maybe he wanted to play longer with Gunawan because he miss those moments playing together
??.In the game with Malaysia, he acted so fast and furious once they know Malaysia pair start to lead them. Even, they can counter attack the hard hitting malaysian, koo kien kiat.

2) Howard defense is better than Tony? Juz wonder why chandra and sigit like to attack tony? oh...i think they just want to play around with tony and again want to reflect those moments playing together.. .

3) Chandra n sigit are amzingly good in counter attack. They can even counter Fu haifeng and cai yun hardcore smashes and attack them whenever they want. Wonder why they cant really counter Howard's smashes??? Maybe Howard smashes are more stingy from Fu ???.

4) Chandra and Sigit lack of stamina, gettin too nervous in 3rd set and Tony outplayed them?????

5) i also doubt why chandra and sigit do not want to make tony stand more often at behind of the court instead of letting him conquering the net area???
maybe Tony is in total control of the game and thats why he can stay quite frequently at net area??? ....well if chandra and sigit do not realise all these things...wonder how they can become world champion in glasgow by beating the great cheah soon kit and yap kim hock.

Hello.

Pls understand that the burden of proof is on your side. No one can assume that Candra/Sigit as well as Martin/Jens and all other opponents of Tony/Howard are guilty of giving away the match to the americans. Mere speculations or questions cannot be considered as evidence. You need to give solid proof. Otherwise, this whole talk of "conspiracy" will ultimately be dismissed as rumor-mongering.

In the eyes of all those who believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, Candra/Sigit, Jens/Martin and all other players did their best and did not sell their matches to anyone.

 

[Vtec101]

chilll it dude...
i actually got more evidence to show prove my point but im not saying it here now as i might make it even more controversial.
but anyway each and everyone is entitled to our on views.. just dont that it too personal.
cheers man

Sounds like empty lies to defend yourself

 

[Simp84]

lol guys get over it.. well done to "Team USA"
hehe we just have to wait till the next prestigious title...
And then we will see how they perform next time...

 

[Jumpalot]

well, again i have to stress here, regarding the fixing of the match, it will be proven with Tony and Bach performance in the upcoming tournaments. Though Jonas came up with his opinion, i still stick to my view that something was amiss with all those matches played
by Tony and Howard.

The_way, dont take any of this personally. If anyone else said it I would have responded exactly the same way. Now is not the time to look for proofs. If you dont have it by now, simply say it. Looking into future performance of Tony and Howard as potential proof may be completely pointless as the circumstances may not ever be the same again as the 05 WC which is played in USA and at the POND where Americans play professional sports. As much as you like to think how tough it is in Asia, come to game during NBA / NFL / baseball / ice hocky play offs and especially finals like a SUPER BOWL. you will see what a crowd does and what a home court advantage really is. Think about this, professional teams play their hearts out for entire season just to make the play offs and more importantly get an home court advantage over their opponents. There are also many PRO teams that don't lose a single game at home for 20+ or more consecutive games at home. Tony and Howard pulled off a few home court wins over opponents that may not better than TONY, and a Howard that's playing like there is no tomorrow, and you are already claiming there is a FIX by IBF ??????

Another question for you, do you honestly think professionals are unaffected by any of this? look again, even US professional athletes that dont have to deal with such jet lags and living in a new country such as NBA stars like Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, they all have their off days where they cant score over 10 points and there you are claiming the other badminton players must be GODS and can't lose to anyone from USA or even bad games in USA? How would you explain Lin Dan losing so quickly in the finals? Is there a fix behind that as well? Perhaps INDO ,CHINA, Denmark, Korea and Malasia are all good friends now so they agree to take turn winning major MS trophies?

Are you forgetting almost every single player complained about the wind condition? The the "wind" alone is a major challege and perhaps even more for players that train 8+ hours a day because it completely changes the way these athletes play. It forces top players to hit shots they normally let go and it forces athletes to not hit certain shots that are their favorite shots. Being there everyday for the entire 05 WC, I have seen countless professional top seeded players that hit high clears that go out as much as 4 feet or more. Keep in mind that these players probably dont hit more than few inches out in normal conditions. I have seen players let go shots that were clearly going out but then gets blown back in by the wind then hit the line. I have seen these players (normally would let a shot drop if it's just one inch outside the line) that hit shots that would 100% go out by a feet if they let it go but they chose to hit it anyways. I have seen single matches that is virtually played on one half of the court and neither player dared to hit to the other side fearing it will be blown out of bounds. I have talk to reporters that reported they have seen shuttles move on the floor after it's already "dead". Under some of these harsh conditions, are you still certain that the INDO's are "gods" of badminton?

The fact is, 05 WC condition may never occur again. The mental/ physical state of the athletes (the fact that Howard and TONY wants to make history for USA so badly) and everything will be different. Finally, Tony and Howard played in the 05 WC. If you want to say something about the 05 WC being fixed, you better say it now. Not lets wait till next couple of tournaments and say see I told you 05 WC is fixed. It does not proof anything then and it will never work that way.

 

[Vtec101]

I wonder if The_Way have ever played in a tournament before. And if he had, did he ever have the crowd cheer him on? I am not that good of a player, but the few times I've had the crowd behind me, it actually pushed me to pay better than I normally would and beat teams that I should have lost to. To say that the cheering and encouragement from the crowd does not make a difference is ignorant.

 

[Pre-emptive]

The_way, I agreed with your observations in your earlier post but have to say that your conspiracy theory to be totally NONSENSE. ( 90% of the indonesian teams smashes went to Tony but it might be their strategy.) It is an insult to all the players.

I agreed with most of the things mentioned in rudy and cooler's posts. I was there the whole week 20 feet away from the court. All the team tried hard against Tony/ Howard. Halim did give advice to the USA team during the final but it is the home crowd support that makes the difference.

The 3 teams couldn't really perform their best during the games. This was what happened throughout the MD final.

1. Howard *smash*
2. thousand of supporters shout " Whoo-Whaa"
3. Sigit *stunted* and make a lift
4. Repeat 1-2-3 until the rally ends.
5. thousand of supporters shout "USA - USA _ USA..."
6. Sigit and Chandra looked at each other and then the crowd.

Same thing happened in the other 2 match but final was the worst. Eriksen let the birdie dropped on his head while receiving. Eriksen was basically playing with his racket frame during the first few points. Martin, one of the most reliable MD players, made countless unforced errors. Sigit got hit by the birdie on his throat while receivng a rear court smash. I lost count on all the unforced errors.
Luluk pair, although shocked by the crowd, were able to perform slightly better. This semi-final could be a very close match and I bet USA team should win even without the help from the supporters.
The MD final as a match was quite disappointing for me. If you watched the Sigit / Chandra vs. Jonas / Lars match during the quarter final, I bet you would say that's the MD match of the decade. Sigit / Chandra was in top form. The match is in the same caliber as the match between Ha / Kim and Tony / Candra during All England 2000.
However, the Indonesian pairs should not complain as the Indonesian crowd are pretty crazy in Indonesian Opens also.

Congrats to the USA team and I wonder how the sport will evolve if it gets popular here.

 

[MikeJ]

well, again i have to stress here, regarding the fixing of the match, it will be proven with Tony and Bach performance in the upcoming tournaments. Though Jonas came up with his opinion, i still stick to my view that something was amiss with all those matches played

Hello again.

Again, pls understand that the burden of proof is on your side, since you're the one questioning their perfomance. Tony/Howard don't need to prove anything since they're innocent until proven guilty. If they don't do as well as they did during the WC2005, it doesn't mean that they're guilty of game-fixing or any other offense.

Jonas did not just give his opinion, he gave his testimony and the facts since he was actually there (as a competitor) AND is one of the world's best badminton players that we are talking about here in this forum.

Pls don't take offense, but unlike Jonas, you're merely raising questions and have not given concrete proof to back-up your opinion and accusations. If no one answers your questions, it doesn't mean that Tony/Howard are guilty. I mean, anyone can ask "why do you (the_way) think that Candra/Sigit sold their match to the americans? Is it because you share the same paradigm? Does it mean that if you were in their shoes, you'd sell youself to the highest bidder??" Asking those questions doesn't mean that you're guilty, right?

 

[jug8man]

The_way, dont take any of this personally. If anyone else said it I would have responded exactly the same way. Now is not the time to look for proofs. If you dont have it by now, simply say it. Looking into future performance of Tony and Howard as potential proof may be completely pointless as the circumstances may not ever be the same again as the 05 WC which is played in USA and at the POND where Americans play professional sports. As much as you like to think how tough it is in Asia, come to game during NBA / NFL / baseball / ice hocky play offs and especially finals like a SUPER BOWL. you will see what a crowd does and what a home court advantage really is. Think about this, professional teams play their hearts out for entire season just to make the play offs and more importantly get an home court advantage over their opponents. There are also many PRO teams that don't lose a single game at home for 20+ or more consecutive games at home. Tony and Howard pulled off a few home court wins over opponents that may not better than TONY, and a Howard that's playing like there is no tomorrow, and you are already claiming there is a FIX by IBF ??????

Another question for you, do you honestly think professionals are unaffected by any of this? look again, even US professional athletes that dont have to deal with such jet lags and living in a new country such as NBA stars like Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, they all have their off days where they cant score over 10 points and there you are claiming the other badminton players must be GODS and can't lose to anyone from USA or even bad games in USA? How would you explain Lin Dan losing so quickly in the finals? Is there a fix behind that as well? Perhaps INDO ,CHINA, Denmark, Korea and Malasia are all good friends now so they agree to take turn winning major MS trophies?

Are you forgetting almost every single player complained about the wind condition? The the "wind" alone is a major challege and perhaps even more for players that train 8+ hours a day because it completely changes the way these athletes play. It forces top players to hit shots they normally let go and it forces athletes to not hit certain shots that are their favorite shots. Being there everyday for the entire 05 WC, I have seen professional players that hit high clears that go out as much as 4 feet or more. Keep in mind that these players probably dont hit more than few inches out in normal conditions. I have seen players let go shots that were clearly going out but then gets blown back in by the wind then hit the line. I have seen single matches that is virtually played on one half of the court and neither player dared to hit to the other side fearing it will be blown out of bounds. I have talk to reporters that reported they have seen shuttles move on the floor after it's already "dead".


The fact is, 05 WC condition may never occur again. The mental/ physical state of the athletes (the fact that Howard and TONY wants to make history for USA so badly) and everything will be different. Finally, Tony and Howard played in the 05 WC. If you want to say something about the 05 WC being fixed, you better say it now. Not lets wait till next couple of tournaments and say see I told you 05 WC is fixed. It does not proof anything then and it will never work that way.

cool down guy.


fact ---> Bach/Gunawan WC 2005 champs? ABSOLUTELY

unknown info ----> what kinda title won is it? DUNNO.... LETS SEE

ARE THEY.....?.?.?.?

1) the Jia XinPeng olympic 2000 Champion alike??????? (win a big event and dissapear forever more?)
OR
2) the hafiz all england 2002 'fluke champion alike???????? (followed by a year long of absolute lacksture performance)
OR
3) the Lin Dan phenomenon champion alike??????????? (continue dominate titles after titles in a super human fitness form)
OR
4) the Taufik big title big show champion alike????????? (dominating the badminton world when it counts the most)


so the ball (or the shuttle more like it) is in bach and gunawan's court now. they have to prove to the world just what kind of champions they really are.


SO! argument about the WC MD championship --------> pointless. coz the fat lady has sung and that's all she wrote.



cheers from sunny side Malaysia

8man

 

[hcyong]

I think there is conspiracy in every Malaysian Open. They let the Malaysians perform better than usual (sometimes even winning it!!!), so that the sport remains somewhat popular in Malaysia. The proof is they cannot win any other titles except a few fluke shots here and there.