MD final conspiracy theories...

[cooler]

Hi folks,
I was at the WC05 everyday last week and saw every stroke of every match that Tony & Howard played in. "the_way" is completely wrong when he wrote that the whole thing was fixed. Here's why:

1) The matches were too closely and too competitively played. For example, if a boxer wants to throw a fight, he would make sure he gets KO'd and not fight vigorously to the end and leave it to the judges' decision.
On TV maybe the Tony/Howard matches didn't look intense, but upclose I can see with my own eyes that they were all hard-fought and very very close. All the misses were too close (hitting the lip of the net, missing the lines by fractions of inches, etc.). You can't fake mistakes that closely.

2) Would the Indonesian/Chinese/Malaysian, etc. governments who spend gobs of money on their own players allow a fix to help the USA? I don't think so!

3) Would players who've spent all their lives training, sacrificing personal lives to be champion throw away their opportunity? Especially when winning a world championship could mean lifetime pensions, houses, and other bonuses?

4) The disappointment in the faces of the players who lost to Tony/Howard were real! They all had looks of anguish and utter disbelief that they've lost to the US team. I speak Indonesian and I could hear the things that Luluk/Alven and Candra/Sigit were saying to each other during the matches. Believe me, they weren't saying "hit it out next time" or "serve into the net!"

My sister sat right behind Bapak Agum (Indonesian sports minister) during the finals on Sunday. He and his wife were the couple that all the Indonesian players went to after their matches. When Candra Wijaya went to them, he was almost in tears while profusely apologizing for not winning the gold medal for Indonesia. This wouldn't happen if the whole thing were fixed.

5) I was hanging out with many of the Indonesian players throughout the week and was able to chat with them. After the finals, I was chatting with Sonny Dwi Kuncoro and Luluk Hadiyanto, and they were talking about Tony. Sonny said that he thought before that Tony might go back and play for Indonesia, but not now since he was able to win a world championship even playing for the US. Luluk commented that the US audience support for Tony was incredible and it got to him and Alven. Talking about the semifinal match he played against the US, Luluk said because of the audience cheers Tony became a superman and just wouldn't die ... getting everything back even after he and Alven kept smashing and smashing. He said it with such candor and amazed disbelief, that I know for sure that he didn't fake it and lost the match on purpose.

These are just some of my personal observations that I believe contradict the_way's assertion of conspiracy.

BTW, for those badminton fans in the US, ESPN2 has scheduled 3 hours highlights for September 12 from 3pm ET to 6pm ET. Their schedule only listed doubles coverage, which means there won't be any men's single matches being shown. That's odd! I want to see a replay of the Taufik-Ponsana, Taufik-Jonassen, and Lin Dan-Peter Gade matches again! They were awesome!

well said by kwun and rudy and they covered most of what i plan to write

where do i begin...
first of all, congrats to tony and howard on their win, they played the entire week with heart and passion to win the title. It is human nature to come up with weird explanation to explain abnormal event. (eg. eclipse of the sun) .Therefore, the conspiracy theory is an expected reaction. As i have stated in this forum, something more important than speed and skills is mental aspect of the game. A combination of determination, focus and desire is a very very powerful recipe. With the energy and encouragement from the crowd, it had a huge positive influence on the home team, and a negative influence to the visiting team. Howard had the determination, purpose, desire and focus to play like he never play before, and it built upon winning each match, like tsumani wave height as it approach the shoreline. Tony also want to prove that he still can do it and to repay USA badminton generosity and confidence in him. Finally with the american crowd behind tony too, that is one hell of a booster, tony felt warmth and belonging on foreign land.

There is no way jens/martin of DEN would participate in this alleged scam. We saw how easy tony/howard won their match against denmark(#1 seeded?) , why couldn’t the US team take out other MD teams be it INA and MAL? After beating DEN, the US team knew they have a legitimate shot at the title and went for it, mind, soul and body.

I have watched the MD final match on star sport which showed close ups and replays. I believe sigit and candra errors were real. INA were under attack most of the time because tony and howard employed the correct tactic. Like all the other matches, US must win the first game. As tony’s energy wears down, tony played more at the net. Tony’s quality net and front control permits more lift from INA and allow howard to smash, which he has bundle of energy. Tony made more than his usual errors at the net to get quick kill (shorten the rally) and/or force lift by the INA side. On howard, he played smartly, he rarely lifted unless absolutely necessary (those lifts by howard are usually met with rally ending smashes from sigit/candra), he rather go for flat drive return even at the risk of hitting the net. That’s how I would play against better players too, lifting is good as dead. Both tony and howard played together as 'a team' extremely well. Give credit where credit is due.

So to conclude, my post game conclusion is that tony and howard have won the title the old fashion way, they earn it, with help from the home crowd. Don’t forget that it is actually 3 US players against 2 INA(sigit & candra) players in the final if I count Halim to US’s game plan. Every best advice were listened and employed by the US team. So, sigit and candra shouldn’t be ashamed because they too played very well but this INA pair is up against tony, howard, halim, and US fans. Is this fair but this is a separate debate. I believe the odds favor the US team and the results support this. If you look at the statistic summary at the end game, the US made more unforced errors(more riskier shots as I had discussed above). If sigit and candra were to throw the match away by design, wouldn’t INA side incur more unforced errors? Statistics dont lie.


(similar to adelina76, i had a vacant the office building for an hour due to a fire alarm while i was writing this)

 

[Mag]

Hear, hear!

 

[Matt Ross]

I think its outrageous to say its a conspiracy. The chinese win things, the dont batter an eyelid, yet an eastern country wins and everyone questions it?

I think it was just down to sheer guts. I think if you want to help badminton move on, see it as great for the sport that it has happened (same with Nathan and Gail), congrats to Tony and Howard. If badminton can catch on in America, the future looks VERY bright.

 

[Trance]

the_way is entitled to his opinion, do not flame him for his conspiracy theory.

I too believe in a conspiracy theory at work here. But it's not to say anything against Gunawan/Bach or USA badminton or even to be against anyone here. It's just that some things that occured seem to not feel right. Even if there was a conspiracy going on, why does it matter? Gunawan and Bach winning did for us exactly what we wanted to happen. That is that badminton is being promoted in USA. After some thinking, I came to think that this conspiracy was rather helpful (if there was one, that we will never know) and instrumental. The IBF has been constantly on the lookout for different ways to promote the sport. Why not let one World Championship go towards to US? It is only going to help us further in the future.

 

[chibe_K]

i think it is ok to bring out the conspiracy theory. in fact, i already guessed that something like this will be brought up in BC sooner or later. whenever something that feels implausible happens, it is not unreasonable for someone to wonder if something fishy is going on.

however, we must also understand that, no matter which side you are on, it is impossible to prove or disprove anything, we can bring out our views, our analysis, but at the end of the day, we can never be sure what is the truth. and in fact, even if we know the truth, it may not be as black and white as yes or no.

at this point, i will continue to let discussions go on. but as usual, all participants must discuss in a civilized and educated manner. if the discussion started turning sour and out of control, we will lock and ban this topic.

I agree with you 100%. What I like about this forum is anyone is free to express his or her opinions. The fact that someone actually has the courage to post a controversial topic like this is a good thing, its a big success to this forum !!!

I actually enjoy the discussion on this topic. What I do not enjoy is one begins to get into emotion and post personal attack against with different opinions.

My take on this topic is I am not convinced there is a conspiracy theory behind US's victory. A conspiracy theory only works within very small group of participants, like two or three. In this case, IBF has to get buy-in from 4 doubles pair from 4 different countries to make this conspiracy theory happen....I do not think so, it simply involve too many people.

In any case, I still think Tony and Howard's performance during the final was superb and exceptional, way above their normal level. On the other hand, their opponents were not able to perform at normal level due to few known factors like wind, lighting, and most of all, the pressure from the crowd. I say this because Tony and Howard collected too many points from opponents unforced errors, which is not normal in a tournament of this capacity. Down the road, I hope to see Tony and Howard continues to win more tournaments and prove others wrong about them.

 

[kwun]

the only conspiracy (if it can even be called that) that i am convinced of is that IBF chose USA as the venue to boost the status of badminton in the USA. and that's about it.

i am not even going to speculate that they might have predicted Bach/Gunawan could win because of home ground support alone. before last Sunday, that's just too remote a possibility ppl will think you are clueless if even mentioned.

 

[Jumpalot]

the_way is entitled to his opinion, do not flame him for his conspiracy theory.

I too believe in a conspiracy theory at work here. But it's not to say anything against Gunawan/Bach or USA badminton or even to be against anyone here. It's just that some things that occured seem to not feel right. Even if there was a conspiracy going on, why does it matter? Gunawan and Bach winning did for us exactly what we wanted to happen. That is that badminton is being promoted in USA. After some thinking, I came to think that this conspiracy was rather helpful (if there was one, that we will never know) and instrumental. The IBF has been constantly on the lookout for different ways to promote the sport. Why not let one World Championship go towards to US? It is only going to help us further in the future.

I too believe everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it has to be clearly stated exactly as that. When someone makes a statement as if its a fact then it must be backed up with solid and concrete evidence. I am sorry if it's too harsh but its the only way. In this case, I believe it started out as a reply taken out from another thread by Kwun ( USA Made History in 2005 IBF World Championship Men's Doubles ) and then renamed conspiracy theories by Kwun. The_way never intended his post as a conspiracy theory I believe. It was intended as a statement to IBF that he knows IBF fixed the game to promote badminton in USA. In this day and age, one has to be prepared to take some "flaming" if you choose to post in this manner without providing something "solid" before making such accusation. Lets keep in mind there are world class players reputation as well an entire organization (IBF) being accused of a extremely serious potential "crime" here. I am a logical person as well and I will never say anything is impossible but stating a few observations then concluding that the game is fixed is not going to convince me.

As for the statement such as a win is a win and it doesnt matter how USA won as long as it will be good for USA anyways. Its not true. A win has to be legitimate to be a win. A win is no longer a win if its "proven" that its fixed. If anyone cheated to win or helped someone else to win, then the win is completely worthless. It would have been 100% better if the team lost in the first round vs. winning a fixed tournament.

 

[madbad]

... A win has to be legitimate to be a win. A win is no longer a win if its "proven" that its fixed. If anyone cheated to win or helped someone else to win, then the win is completely worthless. It would have been 100% better if the team lost in the first round vs. winning a fixed tournament.

A lot of times it's the "suspicion" behind the win that creates the controversy. Look at the countless China player v China player results - mostly one sided or walkovers because of dodgy "injuries". The suspicious nature of these results are more than sufficient to cast a dark cloud over the sport. An analogy - Barry Bonds and his taking of steroids. Even if he never took anything, the stigma will remain forever and all his recors tainted. No, nothing needs to be proven.

 

[Jumpalot]

A lot of times it's the "suspicion" behind the win that creates the controversy. Look at the countless China player v China player results - mostly one sided or walkovers because of dodgy "injuries". The suspicious nature of these results are more than sufficient to cast a dark cloud over the sport. An analogy - Barry Bonds and his taking of steroids. Even if he never took anything, the stigma will remain forever and all his recors tainted. No, nothing needs to be proven.

Barry Bond was tested POSITIVE for steroids. He even said he once used a type of a cream but not knowing its a steroid. Ironically, there is a type of steroid that is in the form of a cream and its nicknamed as "THE CREAM" If there is any suspicion, I can understand it. But, the key word is POSITIVE. He was actually tested. There is an element of truth.

 

[madbad]

Barry Bond was tested POSITIVE for steroids. He even said he once used a type of a cream but not knowing its a steroid. Ironically, there is a type of steroid that is in the form of a cream and its nicknamed as "THE CREAM" If there is any suspicion, I can understand it. But, the key word is POSITIVE. He was actually tested. There is an element of truth.

OK, maybe the wrong example. Today a daily French newspaper (forget the name - but a frontline daily) devoted 4 pages to Lance Armstrong taking performance enhancing drugs before winning his first Tour. Now if that does not create suspicion, nothing will. Replace Lance's name with any of the other supposedly "clean" atheletes - same result. Suspicion = loss of credibility = tainted achievements. It's human nature to think this way.

 

[kwun]

i don't think drug taking is analogous to the current topic. as mention, drug testing a science that has an accurate yes/no results.

 

[kwun]

FWIW, i have attached pictures of Candra/Sigit during the press conference that was held 10mins after the ceremony. the sad ones are at the start of the press conference, the happy ones are near the end...

 

[madbad]

i don't think drug taking is analogous to the current topic. as mention, drug testing a science that has an accurate yes/no results.

I was just responding to a comment on the suspicion of cheating and using drug taking as an example. Drug testing is a totally different thing but is not necessarily accurate to provide a yes/no result. There are many ways to beat a drug test. Anyway, yes we digressed.

 

[Jumpalot]

I was just responding to a comment on the suspicion of cheating and using drug taking as an example. Drug testing is a totally different thing but is not necessarily accurate to provide a yes/no result. There are many ways to beat a drug test. Anyway, yes we digressed.

Madbad, I understand your point about how suspicion created about an athlete or a may stay with them forever whether there is any solid evidence or not. That is an important point and it certainly could apply to this 05 WC MD final result.

I feel sorry for all the world class badminton athletes names / pictures being mentioned in this entire thread as you have been dragged through this MUD without proof and there is yet a single solid evidence pointing towards IBF fixing the results. If I could, I would like to take this time and let you guys know that you are all heroes to me for devoting your life to the game of badminton.

 

[JR]

Tony and Howard

Hi Guys!!

I haven't had time to read all the above points, but I can asure you that no such thing as a conspiracy between the indonesians and Tony/Howard took place.


I saw the look on the face of the losers each time Tony and Howard won and I'll tell you there was no trace of happiness or even a flicker of conspiracy.

Tony and Howard fully deserve to be the champions. They beat toppairs from the quarters and on to become champions. I take my hat of for that creating a huge upset like that takes balls.


In some of the points stated Lars and I are accused of making no results after Worldchampionships 03.

We won China Open 03 as the first ever european pair, won the Denmark Open 04, stayed no.1 for 11 months after the worldchampionships reaching at least the quarterfinals 14 tournaments in a row, we are undefeated in Thomas cup and Sudirman Cup matches, reaching the All England Open final 05.

Don't tell me our level has dropped that much.

Maybe we don't have the looks of Nathan and Gail, but we sure have the skills.

Sorry, but I just got a little offended here.

Kind Regards

Jonas

 

[ploppers]

Thank you Jonas and I hope this ends the silly discussion. The fact is, even if there was an attempt to bribe players, would they give up the title of a world champion for money (Which the USBA probably does not have)? After all, isn't becoming a world/Olympic champion what all badminton players dream and strive for? Ask yourself how much money is a world champion worth?

 

[madbad]

Madbad, I understand your point about how suspicion created about an athlete or a may stay with them forever whether there is any solid evidence or not. That is an important point and it certainly could apply to this 05 WC MD final result.

I feel sorry for all the world class badminton athletes names mentioned in this entire thread as they have been dragged through this MUD and there is yet a single solid evidence pointing towards IBF fixing the results.

I honestly believe there was NO fix. In my mind BCF'ers talking about it and mentioning names are just that - talk within a closed comunity. I don't believe it causes as much damage (fortunately) as you might think. Now if this was being dragged out in the media, that would be another story. Anyway you bring up many good points in an articulate manner and that is worth discussing.

 

[ctjcad]

Hmm, Tony and Howard *may* play their last match together as *a team*, as once Halim is eligible to come out and play, he will partner up again with Tony.
Yes, Halim's "coaching" from the sideline helped also. As he and Tony used to pair up and actually played against Candra&Sigit in the AE2001 edition and they beat them also.
But the thing is, you as well as many people can tell "something" is just not right. Esp. considering the skills level of the 4 players playing out there. Tony, Candra and Sigit all made their own errors. But not to put off or diminish anyone else, but it's as if it's 2 vs. 1 out there on the floor, and the 1 person won..

Anyways, we'll just let this topic roll away, within a couple days, i'm sure the topic will cool off...

I have watched the MD final match on star sport which showed close ups and replays. I believe sigit and candra errors were real. INA were under attack most of the time because tony and howard employed the correct tactic. Like all the other matches, US must win the first game. As tony’s energy wears down, tony played more at the net. Tony’s quality net and front control permits more lift from INA and allow howard to smash, which he has bundle of energy. Tony made more than his usual errors at the net to get quick kill (shorten the rally) and/or force lift by the INA side. On howard, he played smartly, he rarely lifted unless absolutely necessary (those lifts by howard are usually met with rally ending smashes from sigit/candra), he rather go for flat drive return even at the risk of hitting the net. That’s how I would play against better players too, lifting is good as dead. Both tony and howard played together as 'a team' extremely well. Give credit where credit is due.

So to conclude, my post game conclusion is that tony and howard have won the title the old fashion way, they earn it, with help from the home crowd. Don’t forget that it is actually 3 US players against 2 INA(sigit & candra) players in the final if I count Halim to US’s game plan. Every best advice were listened and employed by the US team. So, sigit and candra shouldn’t be ashamed because they too played very well but this INA pair is up against tony, howard, halim, and US fans. Is this fair but this is a separate debate. I believe the odds favor the US team and the results support this. If you look at the statistic summary at the end game, the US made more unforced errors(more riskier shots as I had discussed above). If sigit and candra were to throw the match away by design, wouldn’t INA side incur more unforced errors? Statistics dont lie.


(s

 

[the_way]

Seriously though, I don't remember Lars/Jonas winning much after WC03.
Danish 2004
maybe something else late 03/early 04
quite regularly to at least QF stage though
They even managed a loss to England's Archer/Blair at the German 04

well Jonas, i really really admire you as a great double player. I think u reacted to this discussion because of the statement made by Neil in the 1st page of this thread.

I have no idea how on earth he can come out saying that you did not win much after WC03. (sorry, no offense)...Just hope that you will keep up to date with badminton tournaments.

Regarding, the use of word CONSPIRACY....it was not my idea....u r right jumpalot.....u r such an active member of this forum and u r really up to date!!!!! U r a true badminton fan.

well, again i have to stress here, regarding the fixing of the match, it will be proven with Tony and Bach performance in the upcoming tournaments. Though Jonas came up with his opinion, i still stick to my view that something was amiss with all those matches played
by Tony and Howard. Indeed, there is no surprise for me to see them celebrating estatically because they themselves do not realise their opponents did not play to their true potential.Furthermore,There is no way that an organizer will say that there are fixed matches and thus the players who are not involved will surely not be informed about those things"

Besides that, jonas, i really respect ur perscpective and the members are grateful to have you here....after all....plz note that i do not mean to insult the winners Tony and Bach!!!!!! it was just a reply in the other thread, but Kwum start it as a new thread and choose the word conspiracy.

 

[cooler]

Hmm, Tony and Howard *may* play their last match together as *a team*, as once Halim is eligible to come out and play, he will partner up again with Tony.
Yes, Halim's "coaching" from the sideline helped also. As he and Tony used to pair up and actually played against Candra&Sigit in the AE2001 edition and they beat them also.
But the thing is, you as well as many people can tell "something" is just not right. Esp. considering the skills level of the 4 players playing out there. Tony, Candra and Sigit all made their own errors. But not to put off or diminish anyone else, but it's as if it's 2 vs. 1 out there on the floor, and the 1 person won..

Anyways, we'll just let this topic roll away, within a couple days, i'm sure the topic will cool off...

your "somethingis just not right" is grounded on emotion, not fact or logic. To me it was quite clear, as i have written in my post. Yes, i saw the 2001 AE final before. And yes i've met halim when he was in calgary last year. My fren bot 2 of halim's AT700 too.

For the indonesian doubters out there, u r undermining the integrity and credibility of tony G,sigit, and candra, your own countrymen.