Gideon Marcus Fernaldi / Kevin Sanjaya Sukamuljo

[LenaicM]

But it wasn't just today's match that I had said out loud about my thoughts on Choi's delaying tactic in service or receiving. I noticed his serve quite some time ago, especially during his match against Ko/Shin in some Super 300 tournament when he clashed with Ko at that time. I guess people just started commenting on this after he appeared on tv court more.

I agree yet the offcial BWF rules don't provide a clear statement on how long is a delay. It's up to the judgement of the umpire. I think above 5 seconds some umpires will call the player but some umpires won't...

9.1.1
neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an undue delay.

 

[rhoder]

This match would put real doubts in their minds for the OG, especially for Gideon. 2017 you could put it down to their inexperience, 2018 you could put it down to poor timing of a decline in their form. But this time their form coming into WC was great, and the only thing this can be attributed to is poor mentality on their part.

 

[yuquall]

I agree yet the offcial BWF rules don't provide a clear statement on how long is a delay. It's up to the judgement of the umpire. I think above 5 seconds some umpires will call the player but some umpires won't...

9.1.1
neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an undue delay.

I don't know. As I said, it wasn't the duration of the delay that bothered me. But it is that he usually served it when the receiver was visibly out of position (dropped their receiving stance due to leaning on one leg for too long). In many occasions, I thought the umpire should have called it a let. Well, let's imagine if every single players adopted this serves because it is proven to be effective.

 

[rhoder]

I agree yet the offcial BWF rules don't provide a clear statement on how long is a delay. It's up to the judgement of the umpire. I think above 5 seconds some umpires will call the player but some umpires won't...

9.1.1
neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an undue delay.

They probably need to implement the tennis style serve clock if enough players start complaining. Quite similar to Djokovic and Nadal’s time wasting except more obviously deliberate to distrupt opponent’s focus

 

[ericksakti]

Lets not overblow this more than what it is already, they lost to their opponent, who is playing really well today. Even though they have failed 3 times, I believe today is not their time yet.

We can only hope that they can regain their form and confidence for the OG, because as we all know it, they have the skill and capability of it, Just need stronger mentality and better luck as well.

 

[yuquall]

This match would put real doubts in their minds for the OG, especially for Gideon. 2017 you could put it down to their inexperience, 2018 you could put it down to poor timing of a decline in their form. But this time their form coming into WC was great, and the only thing this can be attributed to is poor mentality on their part.

At least this match today confirmed one thing for me, Kevin is not the weak link in this partnership. I think his form individually was not bad either. But we have discussed this many times in the past.

 

[MezzL]

The thing about splitting a pair is that you have to have another sufficiently skilled player. Right now INA have Ahsan/Setiawan and Kevin/Gideon and Alfian/Ardianto as those that can compete at the top. Ahsan/Setiawan complement each other very well so splitting them doesn’t make sense. Someone suggested that Ardianto be paired with Kevin, but Ardianto is notorious to be nervous in tight moments just like Gideon. Alfian is the one with a fairly strong mentality that can somewhat complement Kevin, but their playstyles do not match, both being net players.

It was me who suggested that rian should be paired kevin, but yeah you're right...I forgot that he's somehow worse than gideon in tight moments.

Lets not overblow this more than what it is already, they lost to their opponent, who is playing really well today. Even though they have failed 3 times, I believe today is not their time yet.

We can only hope that they can regain their form and confidence for the OG, because as we all know it, they have the skill and capability of it, Just need stronger mentality and better luck as well.

Then when is their time ? it's their 3rd WC already, still can't get a medal.

 

[Yoji]

Their time next year will come at the Olympics.

We can blame 2018 but they won the AG. I think luck isnt on their side today.

What if Kevin is paired with Rinov?

 

[ma.ria]

They probably need to implement the tennis style serve clock if enough players start complaining. Quite similar to Djokovic and Nadal’s time wasting except more obviously deliberate to distrupt opponent’s focus

Maybe, more players would gather to protest minions' 'habit' to hit shuttle to the net intentionally?

 

[yamsyams]

I should agree with this. Maybe some cant accept it (that's why I stated it as controversy), but for me as long as the service judge doesnt call it, I'll accept it as a fair service

I disagree, but I respect that your stance is at least consistent.

To me, "legal" or not is not determined by the service judge's call (or lack thereof). A serve is illegal when it's high (lowest rib under old rules), and we could unquestionably see that Gideon used to serve at chest height consistently. Legality should be determined by the laws. It's the same logic in the real world: theft is still illegal even if you don't get caught.

Whether it was fair or not, that's hard to answer. It may not be fair to the players who are serving by the rules, but many other players were pushing the limit, sometimes as much as Gideon, and not getting called. So in this sense, it is "fair" that all players get the same lax standards.

 

[rhoder]

At least this match today confirmed one thing for me, Kevin is not the weak link in this partnership. I think his form individually was not bad either. But we have discussed this many times in the past.

Yep I think we have said that in the past. But I think most people were unwilling to pin the blame (or at least a disproportionate amount) at Gideon, arguing in political correctness that both shared the blame. Imo Kevin can only do so much in the doubles court, one could see his effort in trying to take as many shuttles as possible before they reached Marcus, and implicitly it reflected his somewhat lack of trust in Marcus. This time if their disparity in their performance was big enough, maybe more could realise this harsh truth

 

[ma.ria]

Lets not overblow this more than what it is already, they lost to their opponent, who is playing really well today. Even though they have failed 3 times, I believe today is not their time yet.

We can only hope that they can regain their form and confidence for the OG, because as we all know it, they have the skill and capability of it, Just need stronger mentality and better luck as well.

Interesting when I asked my friend, who played it bad in the match, Kevin or Gideon?
He, as a non fan of minion, said they were playing well, but Korean played better.
I insisted, so who played it worse? He said Kevin & Gideon played equally good.

Maybe I should take his opinion, to convince my self that I just worry too much. That they'll work on their weakness, whatever it is.
As much as we're disappointed with the result today, minions are much much more dissapointed.
And as much as I want to see minions against Li/Liu at the final, I now have this bad wish that Li/Liu will not make it this time. Just not to hurt Kevin even more

 

[yuquall]

I disagree, but I respect that your stance is at least consistent.

To me, "legal" or not is not determined by the service judge's call (or lack thereof). A serve is illegal when it's high (lowest rib under old rules), and we could unquestionably see that Gideon used to serve at chest height consistently. Legality should be determined by the laws. It's the same logic in the real world: theft is still illegal even if you don't get caught.

Whether it was fair or not, that's hard to answer. It may not be fair to the players who are serving by the rules, but many other players were pushing the limit, sometimes as much as Gideon, and not getting called. So in this sense, it is "fair" that all players get the same lax standards.

Then you should blame the service judge for being incompetent. In fact, I don't recall ever saying that it was okay that Marcus not being called fault every time he served high.

 

[Yoji]

Anyone can win except LiLiu.

 

[rhoder]

Lets not overblow this more than what it is already, they lost to their opponent, who is playing really well today. Even though they have failed 3 times, I believe today is not their time yet.

We can only hope that they can regain their form and confidence for the OG, because as we all know it, they have the skill and capability of it, Just need stronger mentality and better luck as well.

One can only say ‘this is not their time’ for so long. Just think about LCW, he can only be unlucky for so long until one is forced to consider inherent weaknesses that lead him to be “unlucky”. The problem about a string of losses in such matches in key tournaments is that it leads to doubt brewing inside their minds, which in turn puts more pressure for them to perform next time, and their performance next time is then adversely affected such that if they lose again, the doubt becomes deeper and deeper. It’s a downward spiral unless the stars somehow align for them at one of these tournaments.

 

[ericksakti]

Then when is their time ? it's their 3rd WC already, still can't get a medal.[/QUOTE]

Well not so sure about that, time will tell, LCW never had either WC or Olympic either but I guess we dont judge his career solely on those two titles right, pretty much the same way we judge LiLiu for winning only WC as well.

Maybe they are also not meant to win WC ever, but we will have to see what happens in the future.

 

[ma.ria]

I disagree, but I respect that your stance is at least consistent.

To me, "legal" or not is not determined by the service judge's call (or lack thereof). A serve is illegal when it's high (lowest rib under old rules), and we could unquestionably see that Gideon used to serve at chest height consistently. Legality should be determined by the laws. It's the same logic in the real world: theft is still illegal even if you don't get caught.

Whether it was fair or not, that's hard to answer. It may not be fair to the players who are serving by the rules, but many other players were pushing the limit, sometimes as much as Gideon, and not getting called. So in this sense, it is "fair" that all players get the same lax standards.

Okey, so you might not get it clear.
I agree with you that I accept korean's service as a fair service, because he wasnt called out. This is my personal opinion.
The same things go to Gideon's high serves, Kevin's tumbling serve, minions' habit to hit the shuttle to the net.
All of those might not seem fair for other, but I'll let it slip because the judge/umpire doesn't call that out

 

[Yoji]

One can only say ‘this is not their time’ for so long. Just think about LCW, he can only be unlucky for so long until one is forced to consider inherent weaknesses that lead him to be “unlucky”. The problem about a string of losses in such matches in key tournaments is that it leads to doubt brewing inside their minds, which in turn puts more pressure for them to perform next time, and their performance next time is then adversely affected such that if they lose again, the doubt becomes deeper and deeper. It’s a downward spiral unless the stars somehow align for them at one of these tournaments.

but they won AG which is tournament held once in 4 years. Maybe sometimes, what is meant to be will be. and what is not is meant to be not. THere are so many tournaments in badminton, so this can be the tournament that deserted them and just because they are WR1, it looked more obvious.

Would they have choose to win this 2 pointer (Round 1) or against ChaiHong (QF)where they have match point too or will they have choose to win the 2pointer against FajarRian in the Final of AG ( MD you can take away the Europen potential unlike MS or WS which has Marin/Axelsen in this case)

 

[ericksakti]

One can only say ‘this is not their time’ for so long. Just think about LCW, he can only be unlucky for so long until one is forced to consider inherent weaknesses that lead him to be “unlucky”. The problem about a string of losses in such matches in key tournaments is that it leads to doubt brewing inside their minds, which in turn puts more pressure for them to perform next time, and their performance next time is then adversely affected such that if they lose again, the doubt becomes deeper and deeper. It’s a downward spiral unless the stars somehow align for them at one of these tournaments.

Yes, but one can also say for LiLiu that "its their only time" when winning WC as well. So lets not judge a player only from winning WC, just like we dont judge Taufik Hidayat for not winning AE, even though he has participated many many times.

 

[Yoji]

When Gideon served high, was it legal? I think its illegal but everyone served high too . is it fair? yes its fair because they are not tall. It doesnt affect the players across the net in all honesty.

When Choi delay serve, we knew thats what he is going to do to disrupt opponent rhythm. Is it legal? It really from people point of view because he knew what he was doing. we also knew he is going to be like that. KamSon was also affected. Is it fair? It certainly isnt fair.