Agreed. and may I add: 2.3 Building his profile to become a coach somewhere when he's ready to retire from playing. 2.4 Just to have fun.
In response to point 1. Yes definitely, in fact some of the province players may be better than the National players, but don't get picked for National team for many reasons, likewise, some players may not get chosen for province team but be better than Province team members. It is a question of being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people. It will happen in any country, in any sport. In response to point 2. Yes definitely. my point mentioned in post #65 after point 3. Chen Hong is less likely to compete in olympics as an individual than part of CHN team. Even if he returns to national team he won't be picked unless serious injury to 2-3 players. He knew this from when he decided to leave and he made his choice. as good as the thread has been I think we have covered just about every point now.
Lu is what, 17? 18? He's still young. remember CJ only started to win(internationally, senior) when he was 20 or so. also, what LazyBuddy said about masking injuries is a very real thing which happens to many people. LD's abdominal injury most likely didn't occur during the match against Santoso, but more likely a gradual build up of torn muscle tissue, which would've been troubling him for a long time. it was only when the pain got unbearable to him that he had to retire, and we have to remember, he can withstand pain (AE 2006 Finals).
1) It's very normal for a coach to express his disappointment when his 'protege' becomes 'prodigal'. More so from someone as outspoken as LYB. I agree with some of you that LYB's disappointment is that it may set a precedent for the rest to follow. And that sort of disappointment is understandable. 2) Gillian Clark & the male commentator were doubtful about CY's injury in the AE 07 but when the camera zoom in on CY's ankle, Gillian was convinced of CY's injury. 3) LD - my Chinese friend quoted a Chinese article wherein LD's father mentioned that LD is a strongheaded person even when he was young. Even when punished, he will endure the pain. Anybody can confirm on this ???
well, there was that occasion when he injured his knee during the AE 06 finals, and he still managed to win from 9-5 up. afterwards, his knee was really swollen and purple. it's in this forum, some article about a 12 year old meeting him after the game and the kid confirmed Lin Dan's injury. LD managed to suck it up and beat Lee Hyun Il.
Hmm... u sure about that? If my memory serves me right, there's no tournament after AE07. Anyway, I could be wrong... old man here
Yes CJ didn't make impression until 20, but Arguably he still hasn't made a huge impression now (partly my point) LD was in QF of AE at 17, CH won at 20.
well, not everyone's the same. Han Jian started at 17 and won a World Champ. it's different for each individual. Mai Audina beat Zhang Ning at 15
I agree with 2.4. However, I don't think 2.3 is a main reason. CH got almost every title a player can even dreamed about, therefore, he's resume is way better than almost everyone else already. As long as he wants, I am pretty sure almost all the teams will give him a shot to be coach.
internet was down for a few days... anyway: all statements that i wanted to say have been mentioned except: I think you are the b**l sh*tter here. We will all agree that talent plays a big part in all sports. I also agree that training will, to some extent. Which country do you think would have more talent? Which country has a higher talent pool to choose from? A country with a bigger population ie china would be nothing if we combine countries to equal China's population size. if we combine malaysia, indonesia etc etc, and train all their atheletes together, of course the results would be much much better. Take it this way: if you have more people, there would be more people in ur country that are willing to train hard, which makes competition harder, which make people train harder etc etc. Of course population matters! what the h*ll are you b**l sh*tting about? And I am taking absolutely nothing away from the great chinese players. I rever them, and i respect them to the maximum. But I am saying population will play a factor, however small. no one is disrespecting or doubting the efforts of the chiense players. they are hardworking, and I respect it. Try not to pull things out of thin air. Many people condemned Taufik for walking out. We were very dissapointed in him. oh how gullible. i am very sure cy withdrew. dont tell me he recovered 1 day later after a plane trip, packing, going into new hotel, etc etc? dont make me laugh i think players should be allowed to do that. its their lives. Malaysia allows it to happen, why not china? Its a lot to do with your own dedication and training, so why shouldn't you have a say in what you want to do with it? So lets say lazybuddy gets free education by the government. do you have to go and work for the government sector until you die? or can you join the private sector after a stint in the government? is working privately cheating? are you cheaply getting a free ride? but is LYB saying it to his friends? he said it in a professional tournament! that is unprofessional behaviour, and he dosent deserve to be respected one bit methinks.
1. Population does count, but a successful and proven system counts even more. If population is everything, we should see nations like India, US (no disrespect to their players) to be in the same level as CHN, or not far away. Nations like Denmark might rank 150 or beyond. Clearly, it's not the case. Denmark is still a force, but many other nations which have way more population are not, or never even ever close to be. Remember, the entries for a tournament is not based on the population ratio. CHN team might have 20 ppl qualify for Olympics, but they only send 3. Other nations might only have 3, but all 3 can go. 2. The "free ride" is consider as a contract by me. Sure, it might not have the lawyer-written wording, or 2 dozens signatures. However, do you want to keep your promise with honor, or at least, once the conflcts of interest coming up, think twice between the individual and the group? You agreed with the terms, and enjoyed all the benefit, once you have a conflict with the "duty", you just say, "oh, freedom"... 3. Like I said many times, CH took the advantage to get free training, salary, etc, even when he was a little kid. There's no free lunch in this world, and CH fully aware of it, at least, after he's 15 or above. If he quit national team way back then, and train/play by himself, I have nothing against him, but full respect. But now, he's using other ppl's investment to rise his own "stocks", and now, tell me "give me my freedom"??? Fine, there's no written rule to sue or bann him. However, he did lose my respect in a big way. 4. Regarding ur example of "free education". My current job pays for my master degree. There's no written regulation whether I should stay or not, after my graduation. I know there're ppl taking advantage of it, to get the "free ride". However, with my honor, I think I own them one, as they helped me when i need it, and give me a chance to shine. I want to back up my honor, and work hard for them. Of course, this might be stupid, as there's no lawyer chasing me anyway, but I consider the honor and honest is more valueable than $$$ or a title.
It's getting abit too hot here, but I would like to share something too. To be able to be good at a sport, talent, effort and perhaps a good development system are important. However, have you ever thought of the physical limitation and tradition/culture within the country are significant enough to influence the outcome? Without any intention to arise a racism issue, have you seem any one could consistently produce good result in world class 100M and 200M competition, ie Olympics? The African American rule these events. Think about NBA, anyone could be better than them? Once again, I am talking about CONSISTENTLY producing the result but not those one of a trillion kinds. And as I know that Asians are supposed to produce better result at Badminton as agility and reflexes are really important. The second one is that tradition/culture play a big part in the sport. Why New Zealand produce world class Rugby players? Coz it's a culture to watch and love Rugby, everyone here love Rugby. Compare to China, America and India who have a much bigger population, why cant they produce some good players? The thing is, they don't care as not as many people in the country are interested in this sport, China have table tannis, badminton, gymnastics and you name it; America have NFL, NBA and baseball; UK have football... that's why you don't see many people from the western side produce good result consistently. Talk about Peter Gade and Kenneth? They are under the one of a trillion kind category. Take a look at the Top 20 Ranked players, how many of them are from western country? Like somebody from this Forum mentioned before, if they can produce better result and have a better future in soccer, rugby and etc, why bothered forcing yourself into a sport that you will never make it to the world? When you are young, you were brought up with one sport, then you will like the one sport that you are brought up with. That's y people in NZ like Rugby. If one really like Badminton but having the potential to be one of the top Rugby players; who do you think this individual wanna be? It's obvious. At last, let's talk about the Duty and Freedom issue that CH brought up. I respect your honour and honesty, it's truely a great principle to practise. But I respect CH too, for his determination and guts to stand up for himself. Hey, it's his life you are talking about, not yours. Think about it, in a business world, isn't it normal? You got to know one thing, these boys from China they don't get to choose the sport they like, but the country choose them (correct me if i am wrong, i got this idea from a sport tape and a gymnastics coach)!! Which means they don't have a choice but to train hard for badminton. You said you will stay and work for the company, but how long would you plan to stay there? 10 years? 20 years? My company do that to me as well, they provide education and training. I appreciate it from the very deep of my heart, but when you ask me do I stay here forever? My answer is NO. I am a human being, i have my own plan and ambitious, i want my own business. A company would get a item and get this thing worked for them forever but not a Human being. I am pretty sure you will do the same, right? I don't mind working here for another 10 years if the company need me. But what if you feel that you are not that important to the company anymore? what if you feel that someone in the company is replacing you? Put yourself in CH situation, LYB do not focus so much on him anymore but the youngsters. its normal, yes. But hey, how many years CH has been in the team? All his life? Did he give up on the team when LYB dropped him in Olympics 2004? Did he give up when he was dropped from Thomas Cup 2006? He didn't, only now he gave up... the poor guy knows that he wasn't needed in the team anymore... eventhough LYB said so, but all the things that LYB did tell us that he would not provide any chance for CH to participate in important competitions eventhough he is still capable. He came out because he knows that he can still make some great achievement with is ability. He is 27 years old now, if he doesnt do it now, when should he do it? He could have done this in 2004 when he was dropped from the Olympics but he didnt, he kept on waiting until he feel despair and disappointed. Plus, he got a family now... Think about if you have a family and what you earn cannot support your financial needs, would you do something? would you think of getting a better job eventhough you owe your company a big time? Again, it's your life that you are talking about not anything else. He is selfish? He is indeed, I am, you are and everybody is. Simply because we are human being. Don't tell me you are a hero who will sacrifice yourself just for good of others, it only happens to a small group of people in the whole world without anyone forcing them. And I certainly not one of them. Kent
tell me why a 4 million population nation leads the world in rugby, rowing and won more gold at the olympics per million than China, India and America? population may count, but in the end, it's the individual who puts in the most effort isn't it? as for the China bashing, never read of all those posts complaining about China's domination in badminton? about how China's women are so strong, etc etc? i think you will have, and let's say this, China's not gonna sit back and let others take over them. it's not about their population, it's about the effort each person puts in. what about Denmark? they're world class and have no where near the population as Malaysia or Indo
Ok, I got your point. However, the reason I brought up my point of view is NOT to say whether CH is wrong, or LYB is a bastard or the other way around. CH as an individual, I understand his feeling and concern. However, that does not mean everything he does is right. He might pick a choice with influence (i.e. family, budget, pride, etc), and try to do the best for himself, but from LYB's point of view, it certain have conflicts with the team's interests. Now, let's shift to LYB's point of view. As a person who got a job assignment (to lead the team to be the best), he has to judge a case from the team value. Therefore, his statement about CH's come back is very much legit as well. My point is, many things do not necessarily have a good side vs. an evil side. It's just a matter of conflict of interests. At the time we praise CH's braveness, we should not beating up LYB. He's simply a guy who needs to get his job done, and voice his concern. Regardless u like him or not, I am sure he has his rights to voice his thoughts. I don't have a problem that CH picks his way to continue his career, even though personally I do question about his honor and honesty in some degree. However, CH is not the god or lifesaver in the badminton world, and we certainly should not "use" him as a weapon to attack CHN team and LYB. You can surely support your side, but the intention from many so-call "fans" is very much questionable.
I do agree your point as well and I can understand y you are pissed off or perhaps not so happy about people's comments on LYB. I never said I hate LYB in fact, i respect what he does for China and does such a great job to make China dominating the badminton world. Like you said he is just doing his job and nothing wrong about it. I got quite annoyed when I read about people bash him for match fixing and other stuff. But hey, he is just another human being trying to do the very best he can. I am sure he got better offer from other countries (I am assuming...), but he chose to stay with China. That's something we should appreciate and respect. He is doing such a great job that others cannot. I am sure no one would agree what CH is doing if you look at this matter from LYB's view. But saying that you lost all your respect to CH's act is abit too harsh i would say. I didn't say he is right to do that as i said its a selfish act he is doing. But that's human, LYB tried his best to keep his job without caring his players feeling (things like giving all chances to youngsters to secure good result) and fans' feeling (reserve players energy in least important tournament). You can say he is selfish, but bashing him with all kinds of personal attack is unnecessary. Hey my friend, I understand your situation and know y you try to defense LYB. It was neither LYB or CH's fault, they are just doing what they can, It's the fans make it a big deal and as you can see and it something you got to understand: fans are sided all the time, take it easy so you will be happier. Enjoys. Kent
Have to agree LD's pain threshold is very high, almost infinite. The poor guy's showing signs of aging through wear and tear. In AE06, he's up against LYI, who's also totally exhausted by his SF match. He withstood the pain because he knew he could outlast LHI who's much older. With Santoso, who's much younger,LD knew he's unlikely to outlast him although Santoso had played 3 more matches to qualify. If LD had won the first game, he probably would have put up with the pain. Another 21 points, ok. 42 points more to go?No way. I would say Santoso's the hero.
CH gave more;much,much more than he received I don't know what kind of firm you work for but Team CHN doesn't seem like your company. Every badminton talent is dying to get in and the ones who left are the ones LYB had no place for. Except CH , of course. No business would invest in its staff unless the calculated risks indicate the return would reap multifold.So your company have paid for your training; they know you are worth it and that you would bring in more $$$ than what they forked out for your sponsored education. It's good that you feel gratified;reflects on your good upbringing. However, I would question your judgment on others who don't behave likewise. Let's take a look at CH. CH got into Team CHN because they wanted him. He's star material who can bring glory to CHN. He's one of the few excellent enough to be selected for badminton national service. CH would have stayed if LYB had given him the freedom to play honestly against his teammates and win titles and not make way for LD (or BCL, most recently) CH had been slaving for Team CHN since LD became WR1.He has done more than enough for Team CHN. Buttressing up LD is bearable bile but to have to do that for BCL(who has never beaten him?) was the last straw. Can you imagine if you do great work and your boss said your less worthy colleague will get the credit? Once may be ok, twice....? Thrice ??? All the time for the rest of your career? You think you will stay on because your boss once fed you in your hour of greatest need? Or maybe , you happen to be in LD's position...in which case I can understand your undying gratitude. Of course CH's going 'free' will seriously affect CHN team A. CH has been a great anchor. Look at Team A 's first long outing without CH.They won the GO, AE and SWO 07 for sure. And look at the damage they also brought home.Injuries to all the four? Unheard of in the past. Because CH wasn't there to absorb and deflect the damage? Maybe it's a coincidence. Think about it. From now on, MS badminton is going to get interesting.
Just chiming in... ..on this topic..After reading and re-reading and re-reading some of the posts, hmm, Chen Hong's move seemed like a Catch-22(if you guys know what it means).. Well, IMO, i think LYB should be grateful for what CH has done for "his" team China, throughout so many yrs. But at the same time he should also be grateful that he still has a very formidable team, one which most other countries' coaches would love to have, for other countries to contend with...Whether what LYB meant by "Chen's comeback bad for China" translates to other players, who are currently in the CHN national team, quitting early only to sign on & play with another sponsor, that remains to be seen.. I think one great example of a grateful coach/player is coach Christian Hadinata. I remember in 2005 WC Final, after Tony Gunawan & Howard Bach won the title over Candra & Sigit, coach Christian remarked that he's glad and proud w/ Tony and what he has achieved and wished him the best; eventhough I'm sure coach Christian would love to have Tony on his side... For Chen Hong, i'm sure this move is essentially for his financial security more so than his playing career(as he's married); but if he's able to popularize the sport to an even greater heights, then more power to him.. Bottomline, *all* of China(yes, incl. LYB) should be proud and grateful for their athletes(past or present, active or non-active in the national team) and what they've given & accomplished..And should continue to support their upcoming junior & young players for their future place in history..
