2011 China Masters: Finals on Sunday 18-September

[chris-ccc]

This is a cultural thing

"And secondly, it's a team sport anyway. As long as it has those flawed rules and doesn't turn into a personal sport like tennis, these things will happen. People from other countries should not be too confident. If their teams have that postion their leaders will probably do it, while may not as frank as LYB to admit it. "

I do not agree. This is a cultural thing. I know in Europe this is not probable. Too much emphasis is made on individual accomplishment. Well, lets just take Denmark : they dominate bad in Europe, but we cannot see any of the European championship being fixed between Danes player, like between KJ and PG.
Anyway, whatever excuse we give, it is still cheating to fix a match.

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Agree with what you have posted: "This is a cultural thing".

When 'match-fixing' in Badminton is carried out, I find it no longer interesting to follow (in terms of players performing their best in their matches).

I might as well stop following Badminton tournaments, and visit cinemas to watch some movies.
.

 

[lucida]

Don't get me wrong, I'm against matchfixing too. But your example as Denmark is not supportive. Because matchfixing in Europe is of no use to them. They can't get better situation in Olympics. And Europeans may not matchfix for their country, they matchfix for money. Do you know how many soccer gambling scandals have been discovered in Europe? And many more haven't been discovered yet. You said it's a cultural thing because you are too proud for your country. I am not proud of what LYB did. I'm just saying it's inevitable.

 

[Chayady]

This is what i mean (no Denmark, it is china)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=416666

[h=1]China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton[/h]

China's badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games.

Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television's sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China's chances of winning a gold medal.

Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie.

After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.

"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website.

"So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."

Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of.

"It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it."

Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August.

For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.

 

[Chayady]

I am not proud of what LYB did. I'm just saying it's inevitable.

And this is from you also??

Wang Lin didn't pull out and what happened? They don't want to take a slight risk. And how can you know they won't pull out when playing with players from other team? The probability of meeting Chinese players in China Masters is so high.

So? You admit now that it was match fixing?

 

[renbo]

You are correct saying some of the football is corrupted in Europe, and I find no excuse for that (though the level of corruption is nothing compare to the level of football in China).
I believe that my exemple of Danes meeting is relevent : if KJ and PG meets in the final of the Euro Champ. on the year of the Oly, there won't be any match fixing though they are as much afraid of injury then the Chinese. It has nothing to do with "being too proud of your country". Like the post of Chayady says, LYB said his match-fixing were morally correct. That is, to him (and to many of his compatriot), there is nothing wrong in that, it is a duty for them (and many of my chinese friends told me so). That is why I say it is cultural - not because they cheat, but because they think they do something good.
Nobody being bribed for football matches in Europe think it is their duty to do so.

 

[lucida]

It's more like a personal thing rather than a cultural thing. The current leader of Chinese Table-tennis Team is against that and it is rare to see matchfixing nowadays.
It is mostly a perspective thing. You view this sport as a personal sport, so you hate it. But they view this sport as a team sport, so it's very sportive to do that, it's called teamwork. Do you watch short track speed skating? Sometimes a player intentially commits a foul to help his compariot to win the gold medal, and only one person gets the medal. Do you watch formula 1? Somtimes a player slows down and block other players to help his teammate. You may have some opinions, but many people consider those sports personal.
Most fixings are for Olympic qualifications, choosing opponents happens rarely. And as far as I know, only Badminton has those strange rules. Get rid of these rules, things will be much better.

 

[lucida]

And this is from you also??


So? You admit now that it was match fixing?

Do you read my other posts? I admit it's her own decision.

 

[lucida]

You are correct saying some of the football is corrupted in Europe, and I find no excuse for that (though the level of corruption is nothing compare to the level of football in China).
I believe that my exemple of Danes meeting is relevent : if KJ and PG meets in the final of the Euro Champ. on the year of the Oly, there won't be any match fixing though they are as much afraid of injury then the Chinese. It has nothing to do with "being too proud of your country". Like the post of Chayady says, LYB said his match-fixing were morally correct. That is, to him (and to many of his compatriot), there is nothing wrong in that, it is a duty for them (and many of my chinese friends told me so). That is why I say it is cultural - not because they cheat, but because they think they do something good.
Nobody being bribed for football matches in Europe think it is their duty to do so.

Quiting for fear of injury dosn't equal matchfixing. Go and check tennis US Open this year. Some poeple have already criticised those players for being too fragile. But they don't call it matchfixing.
Those manipulators in Europle of course will admit cheating, because they got punished for that, and they will be punished more for not apologizing. But privately, will they regret? Probably not. Money is what we all need. BWF punish players for playing passively, but they can't punish players for throwing games. It is undectable. That's why I say we need better rules. It's better to prevent something than to judge it and punish it after it happend.

 

[renbo]

It's more like a personal thing rather than a cultural thing. The current leader of Chinese Table-tennis Team is against that and it is rare to see matchfixing nowadays.
It is mostly a perspective thing. You view this sport as a personal sport, so you hate it. But they view this sport as a team sport, so it's very sportive to do that, it's called teamwork. Do you watch short track speed skating? Sometimes a player intentially commits a foul to help his compariot to win the gold medal, and only one person gets the medal. Do you watch formula 1? Somtimes a player slows down and block other players to help his teammate. You may have some opinions, but many people consider those sports personal.
Most fixings are for Olympic qualifications, choosing opponents happens rarely. And as far as I know, only Badminton has those strange rules. Get rid of these rules, things will be much better.

You still don't get the point, do you? The thing is not about other cases of cheating giving excuses for match-fixing by CHN team, it is about "perspective" as you say (I call it cultural) that makes LYB and team mates think that they are not cheating.
Your last argument is that with new rules there would be no cheating. Perhaps, but until new rules are made, which is a delicate matter, the rules stand.

 

[lucida]

You still don't get the point, do you? The thing is not about other cases of cheating giving excuses for match-fixing by CHN team, it is about "perspective" as you say (I call it cultural) that makes LYB and team mates think that they are not cheating.
Your last argument is that with new rules there would be no cheating. Perhaps, but until new rules are made, which is a delicate matter, the rules stand.

If you agree it's about perspectives how can you be sure it is cheating? (Although I agree sometimes it is cheating.) My point is you can't point to the nose of anybody that retires and call him/her cheater. That is nitpicking. And some poeple here were not speculating, they were slandering.
What I am arguing with you is that it is inevitable with current rules and current rules can do nothing about that. BWF can't even punish them by the rules. I don't find excuses for those things, I find reasons for them. Bad things happen. You criticise them and not prevent them and more will happen. Blaming those innocent(like JYJ) is the most meaningless behaviour I can conceive of.

 

[Chayady]

Rules don't always cover every scenario, but I believe there is what called as morality value.
I think this is what is missing in LBY, and it is destroying the game.
It even polluting some of the spectator, and they start to think owww it is ok to "lie" because the rules don't govern it. LOL.

 

[huangkwokhau]

Sometimes...you have to acknowledge that CBA does manipulate the outcome...dont deny it!but it does not violate the rule..it is just not ethical...

As I mentioned before..CBA DOES NOT violate the rule but it is just not ethical..( BWF rule does provide some loophole)
badminton is the verge of getting eliminated in future Olympic...we need to promote badminton and attract more the crowd and players...the way CBA does...it does not help badminton.

Also another way is like in Swimming or Track event, where only maximum 2 players can enter or like Tennis only allow 2 ( but host get 4 in Tennis, in MS China has 4 outside top 400 but the rest of top 30 cant enter) )...just like BWF recently implemented in double where max is 2.INA/KOR/JPN may suffer with this rule......BWF can put 2 players in single also..some argue that we do not see the best to compete...same thing in tennis /Track, we do not want to see whole Kenyans in long distance or US/Jamaicans in 100 M....anyway....it is Olympic's spirit to unite the whole humanbeings in this universal...

 

[chris-ccc]

"The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well"

As I mentioned before..CBA DOES NOT violate the rule but it is just not ethical..( BWF rule does provide some loophole)
badminton is the verge of getting eliminated in future Olympic...we need to promote badminton and attract more the crowd and players...the way CBA does...it does not help badminton.

Also another way is like in Swimming or Track event, where only maximum 2 players can enter or like Tennis only allow 2 ( but host get 4 in Tennis, in MS China has 4 outside top 400 but the rest of top 30 cant enter) )...just like BWF recently implemented in double where max is 2.INA/KOR/JPN may suffer with this rule......BWF can put 2 players in single also..some argue that we do not see the best to compete...same thing in tennis /Track, we do not want to see whole Kenyans in long distance or US/Jamaicans in 100 M....anyway....it is Olympic's spirit to unite the whole humanbeings in this universal...

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Agree...... Although I am an enthusiastic Badminton fan; but if Olympic Badminton players are to get involved in 'match-fixing', and if I were to attend and to watch the Olympic Games; I would not watch Badminton events at all.

I hope that the committee members from the BWF and/or the Olympic Council can help to clean up 'acting' participants; since one part of the Olympic motto and creed is "The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

"Fought well" are the key words - Winning or losing is never of importance.
.

 

[lucida]

As I mentioned before..CBA DOES NOT violate the rule but it is just not ethical..
badminton is the verge of getting eliminated in future Olympic...we need to promote badminton and attract more the crowd and players...the way CBA does...it does not help badminton.

Also another way is like in Swimming or Track event, where only maximum 2 players can enter or like Tennis only allow 2 ( but host get 4 in Tennis, in MS China has 4 outside top 400 but the rest of top 30 cant enter) )...just like BWF recently implemented in double where max is 2.INA/KOR/JPN may suffer with this rule......BWF can put 2 players in single also..some argue that we do not see the best to compete...same thing in tennis /Track, we do not want to see whole Kenyans in long distance or US/Jamaicans in 100 M....anyway....it is Olympic's spirit to unite the whole human being int his universal...

There were many "contract matches" during the World Cup Qualifications. Those teams did that to choose opponent. Is it ethical? It is not. Why did they do it? Because they can. You see, when a rule is made, the maker has to assume that people are evil. Inappropiate rules just magnifies the evil part of human kind. Different people have different morality value. When we are in their position and given the same chance, we may have some thoughts too.
The key problem is that the BWF and IOC designed the game as a team sport(with OG's status and those stupid rules), while it shouldn't be. There is no shame in playing it as a team if it is a team sport, right? Fixing the maximum players will only partially solve the problem. And how to turn it into a personal sport? Either drop any restrictions whatsoever or make the superseries more important than the OG. The latter is how tennis achieved its glory and I would recommand it.
(IOC failed to make tennis a team sport, because they don't offer enough money.)

 

[lucida]

As I mentioned before..CBA DOES NOT violate the rule but it is just not ethical..( BWF rule does provide some loophole)
badminton is the verge of getting eliminated in future Olympic...we need to promote badminton and attract more the crowd and players...the way CBA does...it does not help badminton.

It is exactly Olympics who make the sport what it is today. Some associations of "highly professional" sports like tennis and soccer may be happy to see their sports eliminated.

 

[renbo]

We all have our responsibility. BWF has its own, CBA has its own, and we the spectator have our own, and in that case is to condemn cheating, to discourage by our voice, however small, those practices. Philosophy about "human is evil", "we do evil because we can" is empty words and a reflection of your own mind.
As for JYJ, why saying she is guilty or innocent? I know not any of those. But the general practice of the CBA of recent years makes everyone suspicious (to say the least). It is one of the rewards of those practices.

 

[lucida]

We all have our responsibility. BWF has its own, CBA has its own, and we the spectator have our own, and in that case is to condemn cheating, to discourage by our voice, however small, those practices. Philosophy about "human is evil", "we do evil because we can" is empty words and a reflection of your own mind.
As for JYJ, why saying she is guilty or innocent? I know not any of those. But the general practice of the CBA of recent years makes everyone suspicious (to say the least). It is one of the rewards of those practices.

You make your condemnation and I make my anti-condemnation. That's cool. What's different is I want to figure what the real problem is and try to offer advices. And as I said, some people don't make speculations, they slander and hate anybody they can hate. That's not cool. However if you keep fulfilling your 'responsibilities' like this and don't learn to live with it or try to change it or even better, just don't watch, I assure you, it will be a continuous torture. "Did anyone put a gun on your head to make your watch?" how truthful is that!

 

[renbo]

No, it is not painful. Specially because the problems we discuss now are only a small part overall, they happens once every two or three tourneys or so, for the rest it is very enjoyable.
As for advice, seriously, I am not so way up in the BWF organization... just a plain spectator. It is as such that I (and other) criticize. I am sure people in the organization have their hands full of politics and they have a very different approach.
But in the end, it is for us, the spectators, that the game is played!

 

[lucida]

Failed to edit my post. So about those empty words:
Humans are not all evil, but when you are making a law, you have to assume they are evil. If you don't assume that, what is jail for? To think everybody can behave like a sage is just naive. We are living in a real world. A real world should be administrated by proper methods. We hope everybody to be a moralist like you. But that's just an empy wish.
Actually if you really take badminton as a team sport, you won't complain at all. Thing is, IOC and BWF want the sport to be a team sport but you don't. See the problem?
It's more about difference(not cultural but situational) rather than who's right or wrong. If you are just flushing your emotions rather than criticise seriously, I got nothing to say.

 

[huangkwokhau]

You make your condemnation and I make my anti-condemnation. That's cool. What's different is I want to figure what the real problem is and try to offer advices. And as I said, some people don't make speculations, they slander and hate anybody they can hate. That's not cool. However if you keep fulfilling your 'responsibilities' like this and don't learn to live with it or try to change it or even better, just don't watch, I assure you, it will be a continuous torture. "Did anyone put a gun on your head to make your watch?" how truthful is that!

No one is forced to watch....thats the problem here..it will decrease the popularity of the sport.....if TV later decide not to show it and less support then we are very close to get badminton axed....thats bad thinking!!
We need to make badminton fair and no no " acting" and withdrew for no reason..i do not care it is china, Kor or Ina..etc...no Match fixing...Period!!!
If we care about Badminton then we need to promote the sport in bigger picture...

I remembered in 2008 SIN Open..where Wang Lin vs Zhu Jing Jing in 1st match..the winner will play against Wong Mew Choo..since WL and ZJJ only played Singapore Open, not going to INA Open ( only Zhu Lin and Zhang Ning on INA Open)...we knew from the beginning one of them will not show up.....guess what what happened! Wang Lin and Yu yang were in warming up and waiitng for ZJJ to arrive in the hotel..
All of us knew that ZJJJ did not check in the hotel..even singapore organizer complained as they knew ZJJ did not arrive ( they checked with Singapore Immigration) so WL got walkover which that spot could be given to other..it is FRAUD!!!! All players shouted " ZJJ is in China...."I did ask one the chinese players and he said you knew...
It is sad that China is big country and their players are the best....they do not need to do this..chinese people have their pride...they do not need HELP to win....we saw them keep winning in different countries...CBA and LYB do make this sport look really bad so the image of chinese players which they have nothing to do with it...is that fair??