Yonex ALL ENGLAND 2021 : R/32-Final (Birmingham, 17-21 March)

Discussion in '2021 Tournaments' started by CLELY, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    have you ever seen nba players try tennis? hilarious. they have no concept of grips, terrible swings, clunky footwork and terrible eye-hand coordination with a racket in their hand. so now imagine them on a badminton court where you need to add quickness and lunging.

    you're watching players like irving move relative to his same type of athlete. it's deceiving. when i watch them move around in the general population they look awkward, especially those over 6'5".
    he'd whiff, and i'd put money on that.
     
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  2. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    I'd take "LD" :D
    Ever notice how Axelsen seems to hulk over most of his competition? In the NBA, he's one of the short guys. I bet he looks pretty normal next to them, and not lanky.
    While I have no idea who the guy is, he still has to bend and lunge for drop shots, and assuming he's freakishly tall, he'll turn his hips slower than smaller guys, so I'll try my best to simply move him around the court without giving him loads of time. You can do that for every size of player since there's no ceiling....

    Regarding the mechanics you're talking about, well, firstly I dont think those guys get into the same deep stances and lunges CL does, and basketball has a different intensity (I'm guessing shorter bursts of higher intensity, but longer periods of comparative rest, and you can change players out, right?). You don't see Bolt destroy a 100m race, and then go to the 5k runners and tell them the guy is more explosive and looks better when he moves (or maybe you'd pick someone else for the aesthetic movement who isn't quite as tall ;)).
    Also, I repeat, steroids KINDA help your explosiveness and muscle mass. Just sayin'. It's American sports.
    Honestly, I don't think basketball athletes are on a different level compared to the best badminton players. Different sports and a well-adjusted training routine for them create different strengths, and I do think there's almost no doping in badminton which kinda makes it hard to compare to the big American sports.
     
  3. Cunning Linguist

    Cunning Linguist Regular Member

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    What kind of nonsensical "argument" is this? :confused:
    People who have never played a raquet sport look clunky? No ****, Sherlock. That is obviously the case for everyone, not just for nba players, and not just for tall, but also for tiny people. If Lin Dan tried to guard James Harden, he'd break his ankles quicker than you can say oops, because he's never played that sport. That's simply normal.
    This is - obviously - not a discussion about switching seasoned players of one sport to the other, but about body types. I think tall players would do well in badminton (but we've never seen highly talented tall players), @j4ckie disagrees.



    Jordan, Lebron or Giannis look "akward" in the general population. Ok, mate. Whatever you say.

    This is way past off topic, so I'm out. :D

    @j4ckie
    Let's put it this way - if you look at the people who play badminton around the world, the vast majority of them will be in the 170cm - 180cm bracket (maybe even less) and only a fraction will be in the 190cm to 200cm bracket (or even above).

    You need so many things to succeed in badminton, from speed, endurance, agility, tactical acumen, creativity, willpower, good coaching, and so on. It is so much more likely to find a great combination of those skills in the height group from 170-180 than in the group from 190-200, because the group itself is surely much, much larger.
    If that wasn't the case, and of 6 million young players 2 million would be 170-180, 2 million 180-190 and 2million 190-200, I'm absolutely confident that the best players in the world would be mostly from bracket 3 and 2.

    Also, 100m sprinting and 5k running are polar opposites. That is not the case for badminton, other raquet or ball sports. Those need both explosiveness and endurance. Just look a football in the past 20 years, it has become much more athletic, much faster, and more black in terms of players. The French, English, German national teams now have boat loads of black or mixed guys that provide the speed that white or asian players simply can only provide in rare talents. At the same time, players like Sane or Mbappe, despite their speed, will still cover lots of ground during a game as well. I don't see how that would be different for badminton.
    Steroid acne is a thing in badminton as well. ;)
     
  4. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    good ?'n... i was working off of your nba player conversation. so, what do you think would happen if you lifted/cleared to giannis?
     
  5. Baddie lover

    Baddie lover Regular Member

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  6. ngkt67

    ngkt67 Regular Member

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    so heartbreaking as hendrawan has to leave Malaysia Badminton team and move on to somewhere else...
     
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  7. Sumanth99

    Sumanth99 Regular Member

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    If this is real I really hope BAI ropes in hendrawan for junior players.
     
  8. pajrul

    pajrul Regular Member

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    his resignation was not accepted.. he will still be around
     
  9. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Firstly, 100m and 5k are not polar opposites. That's exactly why I picked the 5k and NOT the marathon. 5k is the upper echelon of mid-distance, you can pick 1,5k or 3k instead if you want. Many runners do all 3 and gradually convert to longer distances later in their career when fast-twitch muscle fibres converts to slow-twitch. Compared to Marathonners, most mid-distance runners look a bit more human and muscular, and less sceletal.
    There is a great speed requirement for middle distances, but also endurance.
    Basketball and badminton really aren't the same in terms of athletic requirements as far as I understand it, although I'll readily admit that I don't know much about basketball besides having played a bit recreationally and the very occasional YT vid touching on it.
    I know that there are certain similarities, such as quick changes in direction, and a certain interval nature. On the other hand, at least afaik, basketball has much shorter intervals with higher intensity than badminton, resulting in a higher need for explosiveness and a lower need for (interval) endurance. Secondly, there is no need to get down to the ball, no deep lunges, the only reason to lower your COG is to enable quicker changes in direction - similar, but not quite the same as in badminton where the time to get to a shuttle is (afaik) lower, or rather, the distance to be covered to get to a smash near the sideline is greater than the distance you'll need to move to block someone in BB.

    Also I see no real argument as to why that particular height should be better for badminton, no counter-argument to my reasoning why it's (possibly) disadvantageous. Your argument of sample size doesn't really seem to hold water for me, if height were such an advantage then tall players would dominate despite being fewer. Same holds true for the NBA after all, there's only a handful of people of that size, yet they all swim to the top in basketball because height is such a powerful advantage in that sport. I think it's a very poor analogy to badminton because it has such a strong selection bias and some of the tactics/strategies involved in badminton are a non-factor there (you cant abuse someone's tall frame by making them get low to drop shots there, you can't really make them twist and turn their hips as much, can't force such rapid changes in direction,....).
    Keep in mind this is talking about MS and not MD, where there's very different demands and tactical possibilities, and so the spectrum of "viable" height is much wider. Very different court coverage hides disadvantages of both shorter and taller players that are more apparent in singles.
     
  10. Cunning Linguist

    Cunning Linguist Regular Member

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    A moot point, because we're not talking about transferring seasoned bb players to badminton or vice versa (Jesus).
    The lunges you mention are already a badminton-specific move that is coached over years and could of course be taught to taller players as well. Axelsen has become really good at it, to a point where I'd say he's better at it than most other top players and has an advantage over smaller opponents, because...

    ...of his better reach. Reach enables you to return shots that others can't, and to conserve energy for steps you don't even have to take. Your smashes have more dangerous angles, and are faster.
    I just rewatched Axelsen vs Antonsen. There were hardly any lunges or "exploitation" of tall players' weaknesses, even though they are both tall. Lots of overhead opportunities, though. Maybe they are tactically challenged.

    They already do. How many world class badminton players from Denmark do you know that are 172-178 cm? The two best are 194 and 188, Kenneth Jonassen is 189, Hoyer-Larsen 189, JoJ and Morten Frost 186 (afaik). Even Peter Gade is 183.
    If your logic were true, we should see world class Danish badminton players in the 170-180 size range all the time. We don't. And even in other countries Christie, CL, BCL, LZJ, Chen Jin, Chen Yu, Chen Hong, SYQ, NKL, WTW, CTC, SK and even LD and KM are all (well) above their respective countries' average height. You can go back all the way to the 1990s and you'll find at the World Championships 1991 Zhao Jianhua 183, Alan Budikusuma 178, and Liu Jun 185. They all must have been 10 or more cm above national average at the time. Being tall has always been a major requirement for badminton. If you're not tall for your country, you don't even make it through the national programme. Where are the 175cm world class Chinese players? Oh right, they play women's singles. Must be a coincidence.

    Not true. You don't "swim to the top" simply because of size. First of all, it is very position-dependent. Guards will be significantly smaller than centers. Secondly, the really tall players who are 2,20 or above like Boban or Tacko Fall rarely get minutes. The few exceptions like Porzingis or Yao Ming have always brought more to the table (both are great shooters), otherwise they wouldn't have made it.
    And if you look at the real freaks in the league, like Giannis, Lebron or Kevin Durant, they are exeptional scorers because they combine their height and reach with so many other things, for example speed and agility. They are 206, 211 and still move like guards.

    The NBA currently has players between 175 and 229cm. I haven't checked, but I think that is ever so slightly more than in top level badminton. So much for selection bias. And of course there are tactics to exploit the weaknesses of tall players, team tactics even: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_ball_(basketball)
    To be honest, I only used the NBA as an example, because it is so obviously illustrates that there are tall, incredibly mobile athletes. Imagine my surprise when I read "people above 6ft5 are akward", "only look fast in relation to themselves" etc. I just wonder why you think that Axelsen can get to world champion and #1 at 194cm, but someone with the body of Jordan, who's 4cm taller and such a clearly more gifted athlete, could not.

    188cm Kyrie Irving only looks fast in this video, because everyone else on the court is an absolute slug, of course.


    More of the aforementioned slugs being akward (everyone except #55 is above 6ft5), unable to get down, or turn their hips in anything but slow-mo.
     
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  11. Yoji

    Yoji Regular Member

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    i was looking at 2013 ChenLong AllEngland win vs LCW, i dont think his attack is better than LZJ per se.
     
  12. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Alright, last comment of mine on this topic since we're really starting to move around in circles.
    Firstly, the argument that the NBA doesn't have much taller players just because the bottom and top end of the RANGE arent that much taller than in badminton has to be one of the most dishonest arguments I've encountered on here. Or you're utterly oblivious to statistics, which I don't believe. Maybe you wrote it in a hurry.
    Even assuming it held any validity (obviously, a pure min/max comparison is lacking), that is LOADS above badminton. I think Mats Pieler Kolding is the tallest current player near the top, and he's in doubles, not singles, whereas I specifically mentioned I only mean singles when I speak of a certain disadvantage when you get to the range above 1,90 - and I never said players above 1,80 aren't successful, don't know why you listed all those Danes, who aren't much above average by Danish standards. And Kolding's a whopping 25cm shorter than the top end in the NBA, where he wouldn't even be NEAR the top.
    The shortest players in badminton are not only shorter than 1,75m, there are actually quite a few of them. However, I already said previously that being that short starts to be a disadvantage as well, forcing you to take extra hops when running the full diagonal. Seems like that's valid with how many of those shorter guys tend to play doubles.

    Hilarious to me that to prove your point of "taller=better" you posted a video of a 1,88m (below average height) bb player.
    And if you transfer the hip rotation speed of those guys in the 2nd vid 1 to 1 to badminton, they'd be sluggish af. Yeah they can jump, but the changes in direction in bb aren't comparable to those in badminton and the videos show nothing at all to disprove or even pull into question that particular point.
    If all you wanted to prove is that bb players are indeed pretty good athletes, great, no one said anything different. I really fail to see how those videos prove or show anything that wasn't clear before.
    To be quite clear before you try yet again to disprove my point by falsely appealing to extremes - I simply said that a bigger frame means a SLOWER turning of the hips, which is a disadvantage. Didn't say it was instantly debilitating or that anyone can't turn their hips.

    On to one of the points I really, really can't accept. You say being taller saves you energy, because you save a step here and there. That is not true. Taking fewer steps saves energy compared to pittering about in tiny steps, yes, but being taller forces you to expand more energy because of the levers, masses and intertia involved. And while you can store a bit more because you have more overall muscle mass, all this doesnt scale linearly. For any linear growth in one dimension, height, your weight goes up cubically assuming the same proportions, which is why only relatively small insect have exosceletons - those get too heavy.
    Now, I absolutely am not saying that you can't be good just because you're tall. I'm saying that the simple statement "taller=better" is not true for badminton, especially not men's singles, and that I find it likely that a size of over 1,90m slowly starts to be disadvantageous for non-enhanced athletes. Yeah, I know basketball players are explosive. I know some NFL players are absolute freaks. I know they'd never be able to keep that athletic standard in a tightly controlled anti-doping environment, though (even though I'm a big football fan....some of these dudes...), and that their sports have very different requirements. In badminton, you don't have to dunk over anyone, the improvement in angles you get for increasing height start to diminish at some point, and your lugging around extra weight all around the court with not real way to avoid that unless you can somehow take entire corners of the court away from your opponent.
    If you want to see someone play tactically good badminton against a tall player, a number of occasions where Momota spanked Axelsen springs to mind. There were some games where LD made it obvious what his strategy was.
     
    #772 j4ckie, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  13. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    People talk too much about Lee ZJ, why ?

    Beating Momota, ok Ginting did it before. I see Indonesian talking about "Momogi" but not like this time.

    Beating Viktor, it's normal, oh, well, the head to head between them is 3-2. Lee ZJ won Viktor before that.

    Winning All England ??? Well Lee Chong Wei won Lin Dan to take All England medal, Lee also won Chen Long to take All England medal. Two Olympic gold-players and people don't talk too much like this time.

    Just remember Ginting cannot compete this time and if he can, maybe Ginting will be the people who play semi-final, not Mark CALJOUW "rank 36" if he can play as schedule. If you think Viktor's stamina is worse than Lee ZJ, just look at their opponents in semi final.

    Just won 1 tournament, and the coach opened a livestream to cry, media became crazy and some thought about gold Olympic medal. It's funny.

    Olympic gold medals is not a playground of just Viktor/Momota. I feel the media Malaysia or even prime minister become a bit crazy. I remember I read news in which the prime minister of Malaysia use the word "HERO" to mention of Lee ZJ

    In Malaysia Open in next time, I don't know what media will talk if Lee ZJ lost to certain player. Let's see!
     
    #773 terrynguyen121988, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  14. CIA-99

    CIA-99 Regular Member

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    Terry, you are talking as if you understand the pressure of player and coaches. I am sure your brain might not be able to comprehend it, but for Hendrawan, who has been under pressure for 10 years, seeing his player win one of the most prestigious tournament is enough to make him cry. Lee Zii Jia almost become depressed after losing this year, and that's why Hendrawan is so proud of him. The way you are saying that are very disrespectful.

    "Funny"?

    You might not understand it, but we are proud of our athlete that works so hard for our country, for us, Lee Chong Wei and him are akin to hero. Romanticising over Japanese player like Momota is enough to make people act like you? As if you can even understand people's feeling.
     
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  15. Baddyforall

    Baddyforall Regular Member

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    This is normal man. Have you seen Momota's thread when he was winning tournaments ?. So many romantic letters all over his thread.
    Do you even noticed Indonesian players' thread ?. They unbelievably eat, sleep and fight in this forum. See, what happened when all indonesian players were forced to withdrawn.
    Coach crying for his student makes you laugh?
    Leave it man.
     
    #775 Baddyforall, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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  16. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    I used the word "funny" to mention of media.

    I didn't criticize Lee ZJ when he lost, so that when Lee ZJ won, the media do as crazy guy and I see it so funny.

    Too much praise will turn to pressure to Lee ZJ, again.

    About "Should All England remain BWF Super 1000?". I'm one of them who voted "NO".

    I don't eat, sleep and fight like Indonesian, but I do what I can do. indonesia fight.png
     
    #776 terrynguyen121988, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  17. @andy

    @andy Regular Member

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    What LZJ did was phenomenal, it was his time and he deserved it,
    with it the whole nations hope and dreams rest on his shoulders,
    only time will tell if he’s up to the job.

    As for the criticism of conspiracy lobbied at the AE organisers and U.K. health authorities,
    calling for downgrading/moving to other EU countries from certain circles,
    I just feel they are a bunch of over ripe bananas, easily bruised.
     
  18. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    Give credit to players who won it. It is still not easy even though Ginting is not there. If Ginting is there, maybe Momota could have won it. ;)

    Many different outcomes. This is a big prestigious tournament. Oldest. ;)
     
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  19. pajrul

    pajrul Regular Member

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    It's time to close this thread and move on
     
  20. ngkt67

    ngkt67 Regular Member

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    yeah, see ya next year...
     

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