Too slow shuttles - The german problem

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by ucantseeme, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Adapting might be the key. That's exactly how I started to feel too this season. Doing more tournaments, I realized even my shuttles were behaving differently in different halls. And my opponents always have different shuttles too.

    I decided to stop using a specific shuttle for training matches and instead bought several brands and grades (same speed though) and mixed them in a tube. I test them though and unless it's really fast or slow I just play with it and try to learn how to adapt. Because that's what I feel I have to do to progress on that aspect of the game and stop trying to control that shuttle element too tightly during tournaments. It can be quite draining mentally to always think about the shuttles and their speed instead of focusing on the actual game.
     
  2. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    How do you adapt your MS if you can't clear back to back anymore? I started this thread because I'm not talking here about a few fussy inch, where you can say "I hit 20cm long, I adapt my clear or lift" or "Okay, my high clear/lift is 30cm shorter, I play it slightly flatter, to get the same deepness" That's totally acceptable and nothing I would start a discussion and is rooted due the reason of different shuttle brands or related to the hall. I wouldn't complain on this and I'm able to adapt in such a window.

    I'm talking about two problems:

    1) Ignoring a specific rule and replacing it with the own liking to prevent hitting out and putting more pressure on the back of the court. Especially on the backhand. Why not enlarging the court would also prevent to hit out. ;) I increase my tension during summer or when I play in Asia to adjust for me, and not influence the shuttle for all others.

    2) The gap between shuttles exceed 1m, far off any boundaries of any suitable shuttle. That's IMO not a small change of the shuttle where you are able to adjust. Depending from where you measure this difference, I think any adjustment is impossible inside a game. I recommend you to take your tube, do the speed test, pick the slowest and tip it until it slows down in the speed speed test 1m less. Then fade it inside a game without ever playing it and you will understand what the point of the thread is.

    I also have the insight due stringing rackets for many people. Even for the notorious tippers at my club who slow down shuttles too much, they request nothing above 9kg. One said to me that he don't get any power in the shuttle if he go higher than this tension. I see there a huge correlation between tipping and too low tension choice and even at these tension these guys are unable to get a shuttle inside the speed test boundaries. :)
     
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  3. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    I can understand, that you feel cheated for getting persuaded to play with too slow shuttles, but...

    I still think that the rules depends on too much individual skill. I'm still unable to hit a shuttle in range of the according official speed test bracket, but I can hit a clear from backline to backline and even out. A speedtest should not be a test of skill, therefor it is undestandable that people who lack this skill start to use workarounds. It is a weakness in the rules.

    This is a rule dilemma. If player A is unable to reach the boundaries, but player B is, then player B could play a weaker and shorter shot to enforce a faster shuttle.
     
    #143 Ballschubser, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  4. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    Maybe the shuttles you have been using are too slow?
    On the pro circuit, testing is performed by the players. Choose the best people for the job and trust their opinion but not necessarily where the shuttle lands. A test with different inputs but consistent and expected outputs is still a reliable test. If the test has to be consistent with when the rule was introduced then it would be performed with a wooden racket and natural gut for strings.

    The point of the rule is to define how to perform a standardised test only. As long as it is agreed that the test you perform is adequate then there can be no complaints. Personally, I don't like to hit the shuttles too hard as it can damage the shuttle therefore my expectation is a good shuttle lands about 30cm shorter than the test defines. In the event of a shuttle falling outside my expectation I will always ask somebody else to test it and confirm if they think the shuttle is fast/slow.
     
  5. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    I know, I was not referring to your specific issue but more generally about slow or fast shuttles. Your situation might have been a bit extreme to adapt.
     
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  6. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    Indeed, I got your point. Even then you have following options: If you play a doubles match, there are 3 others on court. You don't must test it and pass this to any other player on court. If none can hit it further to have a reason to slow it down, you don't have any argument to slow it down. Never the less, if you don't reach the boundaries you have any reference to sort out out slower or faster shuttles for consistency. There is also a table of the speed based on temperature in the web. So there are options for starters and beginners to find the right speed. At my level anybody is able to execute the test. If not he don't have any base to slow it down.

    I had cases where opponents said they want to tip, but based on the speed test they said they didn't hit clean. I normally pass the shuttle back and say "okay, the do it until, you think you hit hit clean.":D

    IMO the case of too fast shuttles is seldom and in 10 years I never experienced that a shuttle was too fast chosen by my opponents or me according to the rules. And if it should happen that it is too fast for you, you can hit it with less force. Instead of hitting 100% you hit the shuttle smoother and more controlled at 80%. That's your room to adjust. Your stroke is not binary to hit 0% or 100%. If the shuttle is extremely too slow you can hit it like a maniac until you arm fall off, but still reach the midcourt you have no room to make adjustments. You can't drink a red bull in one go and hit it 150% in the next set.
     
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  7. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    Interesting observation from Saturday. A friend and I visited a 1. Bundesliga (highest division) game. We both observed that the speed test by a few of the players were not done correctly. They stand inside the court and hit the shuttle not above the backline.

    There was no official (umpire) around who can see it, One was out for smoking, the other one went for a coffee. Especially in the 1. MS the players tipped 4 feathers to slow it down. One of these players slowed the shuttle down behind his back during the game as the oppenent discussed with the umpire about a doubtful line call.

    The shuttles landed during the speed test slightly infront of the rear doubles service line. To me this means that even they prefer to play slower shuttles and don't take the rules too serious on the speed test. As long as both sides agree I don't see here a problem. This convience me that it is really something which happen even in the highest level and deserve the name "german problem". ;)

    We also observed this in the WD. One MD and the XD didn't tipped. In the WD many clears where not so deep, like I expected at this level. Also in the 1. MS some backhand clears were not soo deep like I had expected.

    We rarely seen too long shuttles in the games. Just in the WS, XD and 2nd MD we have seen that some clears and lifts where too long but not by much and not on regular base to blame the untipped shuttle as too fast.
     
  8. Mr Arc2

    Mr Arc2 Regular Member

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    Not suprising...
    I just recently became a german umpire and was very interested how umpires handle this weird rule because as a player I always want to play with correct shuttlespeed. And what was basically said is:
    The umpire has no word in determining the shuttlespeed and doesnt need to observe the players doing the speedtest, UNLESS there is a disagreement between the two players. It doesnt matter if or how the players do the shuttletest as long as they agree on a speed.

    IF there is a disagreement the umpire should observe the players doing the speedtest and judge for himself/herself whether the test is done properly. The umpire shall NEVER do the speedtest himself. so basically as an umpire, in this very rare case, you observe who hit the over the backline with an underhandstroke and usually players at the bundesliga only hit with 80% of full power, because they could very well hit the shuttle 1 meter or so out at full force.
    So when you believe one player is hitting with 50% and/or one with 100% you ask them to do the test again with a proper normal stroke. Maybe ask them a second time. And then as a umpire you make a decision, you decide in favor of one player.
    This is what i was taught. Maybe @phihag can share his experiences or what he was taught, if he hasnt already. I havent read the whole thread.

    At the german national championship i have seen (mostly women) players doing the speedtest from the doubles service line, overhead clears and a literal high serve. As an umpire or player it shouldnt concern you, as long as there are no disagreements which is most of the time the case.

    Also it is advisable for a player to perform the shuttle test before the umpire is on court because otherwise it takes time from your valuable warm up time (Feldeingewöhnungszeit). And let me tell you doing the shuttle test and tipping the feathers can easily take 90 seconds.
     
  9. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    For me it is a clear sign, that even at this level things happen with some flexibility and deviation. I think that I awaited too much knowledge in terms of this rule from my opponets and clubmates in the past. Never the less I will keep the rules in the future as reference if there is a disagreement.

    I need to add that untipped and every forth is not far away since all use the same shuttles (AS50) like at Bundesliga. We average players face there a bigger range of different shuttles which gives a correct speedtest more importance IMO. Especially at tournaments when everyone provide shuttles. I played at tournaments opponents whose shuttles needed tipping every 4 not to thinking about tipping inwards.:D
     
  10. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Minor nitpick (your post is on point!): As an umpire, you should aim to be first on court, not only for a good impression and because it gives you time to welcome people, but also.
    In league matches, the umpire is usually subsuming the referee's responsibilities as well, and is free to extend the warmup time if needed, citing ITTO 1.3 ((..) Badminton is for the players). So if the test truly takes long (maybe they switch to a different tube/speed, which must be procured or so), then a good umpire will give the players some additional time. Some referees also allow the umpire the same privilege, or opt to start the warmup time after the shuttle test.
     

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