Too slow shuttles - The german problem

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by ucantseeme, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Agree, though to address the issue that the shuttle is too slow, by standing at the back line, using a drive action and still not reaching the minimum correct distance marker, it is hard to argue that the shuttle is not too slow.

    At that point my opponent must demonstrate to me that by standing behind the line, using a 'reasonable' motion, that it lands past the minimum marker. Often they cannot do so, which means at my level the shuttle is too slow and should be changed for a faster speed. If they use a non-standard motion to muscle it into the boundary, I still normally accept it as long as they contact it from behind the rear line and it's not an overhead action (not seen that yet though).

    You can make the argument that the shuttle is too slow in this fashion. Obviously it's much harder for me to argue the shuttle is too fast, but that is actually rarely a problem for me in the UK. It happens, but normally a fast shuttle puts off my opposition more than me, whatever the reason (i'm normally ok to play with a faster shuttle that lands on the rear line). If I do feel it's WAY too fast, then my own speed test will have it landing 50cm+ beyond the back line, which is far even by using a drive action.
     
  2. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    IMO the speed choice is also related to the level. If Lin Dan, Zheng Siwei, Praveen Jordan would test our shuttles, I guess they are 100% able to deliver a test result of too fast shuttles. Which is okay, if I would play them, I would pick the shuttle according to their standard. But I play multiple level far below them. So I must take my own testing and all others I play as reference to judge the speed based on the level, and the degree of the level involves technique. And if none has the technique to producing a result of a too fast shuttle, the shuttle choice for this degeree of level of play is made.

    I experienced like @s_mair said that the valid testing according to the BWF video is towards zero. For my own games, if opponent stands slightly in the court, shuttle lands slightly infront of the window of acceptable speed, I would never argue about a few centimeters. Thats for me something which I need and can to adjust. For my case the difference between both shuttles was 1.5m thats an amount of too slow, that it changes the whole game and made me work that my crosscourt clear lands in opponents midcourt compared to rear court. Also delightful from the midcourt need more force to play them the same and this made them harder to control like @speCulatius says. I also struggled in this department.

    I'm not here to discuss about slightly variances of the speed test, because I know that close to none do it that way. It is more the outcome of it and 1.5m in shorter length is for me a real problem and makes any whipping under pressure to a pass for the opponent to smash from the midcourt instead of neutralizing. If it would have been 20cm slower I wouldn't have care.

    I could say that I lower my tension 1.0kg to not get influenced by too slow shuttles that much anymore, but honestly I played 27 games at 6 tournaments this year and only four pairs wanted to play a far too slow shuttle. :(
     
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  3. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    1.5m?!? Is the difference between each speed supposed to be 30cm roughly??

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  4. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    Inside same brand and model true and if they are not yellow due age or pre-tipped.
     
  5. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    That's just insane.

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  6. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    That's a really good point actually which opens up a completely different approach to the whole speed testing procedure. With having that huge human influence in the test, you actually accept and take into account that the correct shuttle speed varies with the level of play - which makes total sense if you think about it.

    I think that is the bottom line. A certain bit of variance is always to be expected and it's part of the game to adapt to the circumstances. I basically never complain if a speed test is done with the foot on the backline or even a couple of centimeters inside the court - the goal would be to avoid those super-slow outliers to sneak in (on tactical purpose or simply by accident). Cause that's what's simply destroying the game.
     
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  7. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    I suppose a succinct summary of this thread is more of a "learn to play the game the way its supposed to be played you twat"?

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  8. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Thinking about it, you could summarize half the threads in BC with that simple sentence... :rolleyes:
     
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  9. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    But why is it that the case that this rule, which has a huge influence on the whole game got totally ignored and sustituted by an own taste? I played with and vs. people from nearly whole asia and never need to discuss the topic. The rule was for everyone clear and set in stone. That's the reason why I called it the german problem, because they bend the rule to the subjective personal taste, which is nuts. I also can't say I make the court smaller or the net lower and made of faults lets because I'm used to so.
     
  10. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    I wonder... Could it be a cultural problem?

    I know at least for my groups when it comes to shuttles, we're entirely receptive to changes if the counterpoint is about the rules and we're somehow doing it wrong. But if everything is alright (and legit) the way it is then you can either accept it and enjoy the game as it should be or you can sod off to somewhere else that may or may not cater to your inability to play.

    The way I see it is simply, if you can't play or engage in a sport the way it is supposed to be played (restrictions, regulations, rules and all). Then what's the bloody ****ing point? If you want to make yourself feel good about controlling and having things the way you think they should be for yourself, go and jerk yourself off. It would be far more rewarding.

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  11. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I experienced that a lot of things get spread about badminton wrong here, because it is not popular, clubs are often small and in the lower levels and people learn faulty stuff from others. Some players know more about soccer compared to the sport they do (badminton). They are really uninterested in their own sport. Maybe because Germany is not dominating? I don't know.

    Maybe for them it is a mind**** which they can't take because they did it for several years wrong. Like watching Matrix. ;)

    I personally see it the same, but sadly I really stand often alone with my partner and a few friends with this behavior and the counterpart is stubborn and unreasonable to my arguments. I'm really frustrated. I put out official rules without subjective impression and get totally ignored.
     
  12. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    The reason why it doesn't say anything about the contact point is that these definitions do not really refer to a stroke, but only to a throw/pitch/toss. I was not able to find a dictionary (neither online nor offline) that even used the "stroke" example. I only found this (unfortunately you didn't say where you were quoting from) on definitions.net, but I'm sure it doesn't take into account the angle between a racket and the hand. Either they only refer to the arm movement (can be called stroke) or to something that it an almost straight extension of the arm. Like I said, I didn't find that example in any dictionary anyway.

    Using this definition, a drive, a net kill, ... can be considered as an underhand stroke, even if hitting at head height or above. A definition making sense for some sports/movements, doesn't mean you should just take it blindly for other sports. It might be missing the the point of a definition: setting a line to distinguish between certain aspects. I highly doubt that people who write dictionaries/definitions for British/American English think of Badminton as a first example. Language is not fixed. It has to change to adapt new circumstances.

    Adapting the definition you quoted (out of nowhere), you need to think about where it comes from: a throwing action. For a throw, you want to release the ball/rock/pillow/molotow cocktail/feather... with a mostly extended arm to get speed in your hand, so an arm movement underneath the shoulder translates to a downward angle in your arm.
    For badminton (as seen in the example above), it's less about the arm than about the racket, so the only definition that makes sense to me at this moment (feel free to show me an example where it fails or another definition is better) is to transfer the downward angle of the arm to a downward angle of the racket. This is the same as hitting below the hand. Which also matches the literal meaning of 'under your hand'.
    I actually think that any other definition is not helpful, but will only lead to misunderstandings while not giving a clear line where to distinguish. I would also distinguish between overhead and overhand.

    Also, the video clearly shows a contact point underneath the hand.

    Anyway, that's not what it's about. I've seen 'speed tests' with a contact point at or even above shoulder height from inside the court. One of the problems is that most people will hit from inside the court (even when they stand on the line, they'll easily got it inside around 30cm which is one speed step) AND expecting the shuttle to fall at least 30cm short of the doubles service line, even when they use a different hitting action to gain more power.

    That's the problem. According to the rules, they don't have an argument for slower shuttles, but they think they have. It really is not like we're talking about cm, but about 1m or more when testing. That makes it a completely different game. Timing is different, stroke selection is different, .... I will just ignore the rest of your post. If you don't have anything useful to say, just don't say anything. We're trying to play the sport it's meant to be. In my experience, it's better the higher the level, and it doesn't happen all the time. A few weeks ago, we agreed that the shuttles were to slow, because it was just the wrong speed, but there's little to do against it. You can tip the feathers inward, but the effect is not that huge. The opponent's club had just ordered shuttles that were the wrong speed.

    Assuming a 30cm difference between shuttle speeds, there should be three different speeds I'd be totally fine adapting to, maybe more, but it's way beyond this limit.
     
  13. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Therefore, it would make sense to define such a word when used in the context of badminton, as I requested from Phihag, rather than making an assumption by deconstructing the word and assuming the literal definition of the hand being under/over the (contact point/racquet head/shoulder/head - delete as appropriate).

    Simply there IS no good written definition of the speed test because it relies on a generic word underhand which isn't specific enough for use in badminton which is why I specifically asked for it.

    On a side note, it is perfectly possibly to execute an upwards swinging motion with the arm/hand with the racquet head above the hand at contact because as you rightly mention, there is a racquet involved, and the fingers/wrist/hand allows an addition plane of movement that doesn't exist for throwing an object directly from the hand.
     
  14. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    *shrug* that's perfectly fine. You simply don't have to reply if you don't agree with the entirety of that section instead of subjectively pulling out half of it.

    I get what ucantseeme is going on about. You're totally right. It does make it an entirely different game and not the one everyone else is actually playing.

    However what your own situation describes isn't really applicable to the discussion either IMO. Your situation is already acknowledging that an error has been made and everyone is in agreement and all parties are willing to continue on which is a positive outcome. Also true that since the source of shuttles was the wrong speed ordered nothing can be done about it unless they choose to break out their own shuttles.

    If I were faced with such a situation and we all agreed to carry on then that would be that. Just adapt and play on as best you can. One doesn't have room to complain when you're in mutual agreement with all to continue. I'm not a stranger to playing with differing shuttles and shuttle speeds or climates either. It's all part of recreational side of the sport since every organiser chooses different sources of shuttles. I play regularly in a normal hall and in an air conditioned hall. 2 different speeds required easily in both situations (and we're not even talking about different brands of shuttles yet either).

    To me in Singapore I still find it odd. Organisers love to choose and shops generally sell speed 77 despite our climate and geography being far more suited towards 76 (especially in halls with no cooling systems). But then again I have never seen anyone talk about doing a speed test ever here. I notice that people here when it comes to disagreeing on shuttles being used tend to actually critique the durability and degrading flight of the shuttles as being the problem instead of the speed being the actual problem. Some even complain about stock being "old" and refuse to consider that the problem is themselves and not the shuttle when it is the correct speed for the hall.

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  15. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    Every speed test I have seen - pros including Lin Dan, Paul Stewart, many club players - is performed with a stroke similar (but not the same) to a singles high serve. The use of the term "underhand" is not popular or certainly no longer popular in modern English and should be replaced with something more suitable such as "underarm". How that could translate to other languages is another matter and should be better defined in the guidance in the first place. The general rule should be the type of arc and angle from the point of contact that is required for a test is consistent. It should also state that variable speeds are a fact and any player complaining about hitting shuttles out by a few centimetres needs to adjust their own technique first.

    The issue will remain that some people hit too hard or too soft and can skew the test result. So, don't rely on a single individual to perform the test. Learn how to do it and make sure you are happy with somebody else performing the test or do it yourself confidently.



    There could still be some confusion about the test as I was under the impression that the shuttle is hit from the back line, not the tester standing at the back line as demonstrated by Paul.
     
    #135 Ouchie, Oct 16, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  16. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    I might as well get the feedback here: here's a couple examples of me speed testing in tournaments.

    19:13 and 19:27 showing a racquet head roughly horizontal, 19:13 probably slightly below, 19:27 probably slightly above.


    0:00 showing 2 from the same tournament oddly, both racquet head a bit above.


    If I remember right, the shuttles were on the faster side of acceptable that day according to my speed tests - not quite far back enough to tip, but verging on it. I was standing a foot further back on my normal singles high serves because they kept going slightly out.

    As discussed, my speed test technique is probably verging on iffy, but because my efficiency is poor, it somewhat cancels out and I feel it's probably more like 90-95% power of what stronger players speed test as (based on me speed testing the same shuttles as my stronger opponents).

    Would appreciate any comments on how to improve the speed test technique (believe it or not, I've practised it...), and would be interested if you'd accept it if you were my opponent!
     
  17. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

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    I don't know. My club might be small (~140 members), but we have very experienced players (who played in the Oberliga [4th league in germany], some compete in the badminton senior world championship, one won a title [XD] ). Whenever there might be a rule violation they will call it out, or atleast tell me that this might be a fault in a competive game and I should try to pay more attention to it.

    But the speed test is a rule of the thumb basis, yet some are really picky about the shuttles (some deny to play with Victor Master A and stick to Yonex AS20 :mad:). They speed test all shuttles before a game and ask the others if it is okay or to take an other or to tip it. I don't believe, that these people play the sport casually and take the rules easy, but I believe that the official speed test is more meant as a rule of thumb on its own.

    I have watched bwf games of the top 10 players where the moderators commented, that the shuttles seems to be either too fast or too slow. Maybe the german problem is not the speed test, but the tendency to play with shuttles which are exatcly equal to the shuttles they are used to play with, whereas player from asia might just adapt to whatever shuttle there is.
     
  18. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    You need to hit the shuttle above the back line, the BWF video mainly showed the difference to clarify the rule states the shuttle and the back line, not the player and the back line. It doesn't matter where you stand, as long as you hit the shuttle above the back line.
     
  19. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    I have been doing speed tests like this for 20+ years so am glad to know I was doing it the accepted way. It is pretty hard to misinterpret the rule for where to hit the shuttle from but sometimes translations from English to other languages can introduce some unexpected misunderstandings. This is a case where a series of clear pictures or a video would help remove all doubt - except the variances caused by the human factor.

    When I test I don't hit too hard so I know that if a shuttle lands beyond the doubles service line then it is fast. I don't hit the shuttle too hard because I have broken new shuttles and seen it done many times by others who fluff their swing. It is probably more important to achieve an expected outcome given your personal experience rather than achieve an outcome based on a written rule that knows nothing of your own abilities to hit a shuttle on any given day.
     
  20. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    It might be worth testing all the shuttles in a tube, selecting only the ones everybody is happy with. The shuttles that are too fast or slow should be put aside and marked as fast or slow for use another time when the temperature requires a faster/slower shuttle. This assumes you have access to enough shuttles to select the most suitable from and the players are serious about consistent speeds.
     

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