taking too long to serve?

R

ralphz

Regular Member
I was playing with somebody and they said I have to be careful about taking too long to serve, they said that from the point of the shuttlecock being held in front of the racket, it should be no more than 3 seconds between that and the shuttle being struck. Also(and this was a doubles match), I tend to do a backhand low serve by stroking the shuttle on serve rather than flicking it sharply, so that movement itself might take a second. + I spend maybe 2.5 seconds holding the shuttlecock in front of my racket

I checked the rules and I see he is wrong, as no such rule specifying seconds, exists, but the rule that does exist is still ambiguous

http://system.bwf.website/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/Laws/Part II Section 1A - Laws of Badminton - June 2016 Revised 2.pdf

9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service.
9.1.2 on completion of the backward movement of the server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2) shall be considered to be an undue delay;
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What is the minimum in time or behaviour that would cause an umpire to decide that it constituted undue delay?
 
There is no determined time; it's all up to the umpire (and that's great, or we would need yet another clock on court). Ask whoever cited 3 seconds for a reference to the laws and regulations and you'll see there is none.

If it's a particular problem at a tournament, referees may instruct the umpires with a rough number though. To me, 5 seconds sounds about right, but it may depend on the match. At professional levels, it's not unusual to wait a little longer. For instance, Christinna Pedersen is regularly in the 5 seconds ballpark without being called.

As soon as you move your racket forwards, the serve is beginning. Since the distance between racket and shuttle shrinks continually, I see no reason for the opponents to complain unless you're extremely slow - either you're committing a service fault or you're slowly reducing your own options.

As usual, in case of disagreements in any official matches, get an umpire. In training matches, thank the opponent for the note and discuss specifics later.
 
Ignore them, they are probably just trying to throw you off your game. Unless an umpire warns you, then just do what you feel comfortable with doing.
 
LD rules! said:
Ignore them, they are probably just trying to throw you off your game. Unless an umpire warns you, then just do what you feel comfortable with doing.
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Yeah of course I won't follow what he said, as I said, I know he is wrong and that he will not be able to prove his point. Also the coaches at the clubs i've played at have observed my serve and have no issue with it. I was wondering what would count as undue delay though..
 
ralphz said:
Yeah of course I won't follow what he said, as I said, I know he is wrong and that he will not be able to prove his point. Also the coaches at the clubs i've played at have observed my serve and have no issue with it. I was wondering what would count as undue delay though..
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5 seconds is an unwritten rule, followed by umpires. I have seen it somewhere in a teaching manual but cannot remember where.

Christinna Pedersen serves on a border of illegal and I know she was faulted a few times...
 
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phihag said:
There is no determined time; it's all up to the umpire (and that's great, or we would need yet another clock on court). Ask whoever cited 3 seconds for a reference to the laws and regulations and you'll see there is none.

If it's a particular problem at a tournament, referees may instruct the umpires with a rough number though. To me, 5 seconds sounds about right, but it may depend on the match. At professional levels, it's not unusual to wait a little longer. For instance, Christinna Pedersen is regularly in the 5 seconds ballpark without being called.

As soon as you move your racket forwards, the serve is beginning. Since the distance between racket and shuttle shrinks continually, I see no reason for the opponents to complain unless you're extremely slow - either you're committing a service fault or you're slowly reducing your own options.

As usual, in case of disagreements in any official matches, get an umpire. In training matches, thank the opponent for the note and discuss specifics later.
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Thanks.. Yeah I once had a player tell me my serve was illegal , they gave some phoney reason.. When I challenged them to record me serving and told them we'll show one of the coaches, they wouldn't do it . I'm good at challenging people and not taking peoples' word for it and getting them to prove their case if they have one..I even challenge coaches to back up what they say all the time so i'm not going to just accept the view of some player that hasn't proven their case.

I see Christina Pederson's serve.. www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=mFLbblCFado

9:09-9:11 quite a bit of movement with shuttlecock in front of racket.
9:11-9:13 still
9:13 flick

yeah 9:09-9:13 counting from shuttlecock in front of the racket.. is a good example..

a little different from mine which would be still for 2 seconds.. + a second taking the racket back and a second taking the racket forward to stroke the shuttle.

but yeah makes the point..

Often I was finding (at least with some videos), the camera often just shows the opponent while waiting for her to serve, so I couldn't always see if the shuttlecock is in front of Christina's racket at the time.. But I see it there. (and I like their movement / watching them move around the court too, their positioning!)

Thanks
 
LD rules! said:
Ignore them, they are probably just trying to throw you off your game. Unless an umpire warns you, then just do what you feel comfortable with doing.
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^this!

One time when I was playing a league game I was leaving the court at the midgame interval to have quick drink and suddenly one of the spectators asked me if I don't know that you're not allowed to leave the court at the 11 break. And I wasn't even sure and looked it up and found no rules stating so... What's even worse is that this person is a referee! :rolleyes:

@phihag: Correct me if I'm wrong but I think according to the rules you are allowed to leave the court at the midgame interval to have a drink or towel down as long as you're not taking longer than the break. In the rules it says that at no time you are allowed to leave the court except for the official breaks.
 
Rob3rt said:
^this!

One time when I was playing a league game I was leaving the court at the midgame interval to have quick drink and suddenly one of the spectators asked me if I don't know that you're not allowed to leave the court at the 11 break. And I wasn't even sure and looked it up and found no rules stating so... What's even worse is that this person is a referee! :rolleyes:

@phihag: Correct me if I'm wrong but I think according to the rules you are allowed to leave the court at the midgame interval to have a drink or towel down as long as you're not taking longer than the break. In the rules it says that at no time you are allowed to leave the court except for the official breaks.
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Actually... no. "Leaving the court" in the rules means only leaving the court boundaries. You are allowed to leave the court boundaries during intervals only to be at the side of the court near the umpire. Going anywhere else is not allowed without permission of the umpire. There is no direct mentioning of this in the rules, however this is how umpires are taught.
 
stradrider said:
Actually... no. "Leaving the court" in the rules means only leaving the court boundaries. You are allowed to leave the court boundaries during intervals only to be at the side of the court near the umpire. Going anywhere else is not allowed without permission of the umpire. There is no direct mentioning of this in the rules, however this is how umpires are taught.
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At my level of play there is no umpire. But you're saying that according to the rules I'm not allowed to grab my drink which is in my bag a few meters from the court during the official breaks?
 
Rob3rt said:
At my level of play there is no umpire. But you're saying that according to the rules I'm not allowed to grab my drink which is in my bag a few meters from the court during the official breaks?
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If there is no umpire, than you should "negotiate with" (inform) the opponent. It is fine as long as you don't delay the game. Even if there is an umpire he will likely allow you to get it quickly but you must ask. However, the best is to bring water bottle and an extra racket(s) with you before the match.
 
ralphz said:
I was playing with somebody and they said I have to be careful about taking too long to serve, they said that ...

What is the minimum in time or behaviour that would cause an umpire to decide that it constituted undue delay?
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Consider that in your 1st serve you took the time of 2.5 seconds. At the second instance of your serve, you took roughly about the same time. A few points later, everything else remaining the same, now you delivered serve in ~4 seconds. Ahh, this is changing routine. This can constitute undue delay.

I know for a fact that an Australian mens doubles player was faulted for exactly such a delay; this was a grand prix qf from a few years ago.

Now if you play club recreational, forget all this. Just play. It takes more time off from actually playing. During a break, if the delayer is cooperative, then it is possible to discuss it, however, not for me - club rec is club rec.
 
Rob3rt said:
@phihag: Correct me if I'm wrong but I think according to the rules you are allowed to leave the court at the midgame interval to have a drink or towel down as long as you're not taking longer than the break. In the rules it says that at no time you are allowed to leave the court except for the official breaks.
Click to expand...
stradrider said:
Actually... no. "Leaving the court" in the rules means only leaving the court boundaries. You are allowed to leave the court boundaries during intervals only to be at the side of the court near the umpire. Going anywhere else is not allowed without permission of the umpire. There is no direct mentioning of this in the rules, however this is how umpires are taught.
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The court includes the immediate surroundings of the delineated court (i.e. mat & a meter or so around it) - otherwise it would be a fault if you stumbled to the side, or prepared a smash by stepping behind the court lines.

During the intervals, you are free to go anywhere you want, as long as you show up on time. In my umpire courses this was discussed in detail, and I think the laws are reasonably clear to stress that players are allowed to leave the court and even the hall during intervals.

This is also a fairly common occurrence at tournaments. I've personally had it on court at least 4 times (probably way more, that's just the ones I remember), usually for a quick bathroom break or fetching rackets/grip powder/towels/water/food.

Conversely, a colleague of mine showed her only yellowred card so far in a situation like this for appearing too late after the interval. I was also told a story that one of the few black cards in Germany was shown when a player decided to cool down for 15 minutes outside the hall.

But if you can make it back to court within 120 (or 60) seconds, it's fine. I like it that way and certainly would not want to see a player peeing into their racket bag (on court!) instead.
 
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phihag said:
Conversely, a colleague of mine showed her only yellow card so far in a situation like this for appearing too late after the interval.
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according to law 16.7.1.3, law 16.2 can only be administered by faulting (red card) the offending player. Hence, a yellow card for appearing too late, is wrong, in my opinion.
see also law 16.7.1.3
 
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Beta2k said:
according to RTTO, law 16.2 can only be administered by faulting (red card) the offending player. Hence, a yellow card for appearing to late, is wrong, in my opinion.
see also RTTO 16.7.1.3
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You are correct (except for the reference, that's laws 16.7.1.3, not RTTO 16.7.1.3). The mistake is mine. A red card was shown.
 
If this is just a casual, for fun game, and plenty of people have said that you took an unusually long time to serve, then you might consider fastening your service. Your opponents might feel that you are delaying your service and deliberately being an ass.

But if this is only one opponent who feel this way then ignore him.
 
phihag said:
During the intervals, you are free to go anywhere you want, as long as you show up on time. In my umpire courses this was discussed in detail, and I think the laws are reasonably clear to stress that players are allowed to leave the court and even the hall during intervals.

This is also a fairly common occurrence at tournaments. I've personally had it on court at least 4 times (probably way more, that's just the ones I remember), usually for a quick bathroom break or fetching rackets/grip powder/towels/water/food.
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At my last course we were told about an incident at an international level where a whole team/bunch of players fell sick because of food served at their hotel during an official party the previous day. One of the players was allowed a bathroom break after taking it up with the umpire and play resumed normally once he returned.
 
juneau-AK said:
Consider that in your 1st serve you took the time of 2.5 seconds. At the second instance of your serve, you took roughly about the same time. A few points later, everything else remaining the same, now you delivered serve in ~4 seconds. Ahh, this is changing routine. This can constitute undue delay.

I know for a fact that an Australian mens doubles player was faulted for exactly such a delay; this was a grand prix qf from a few years ago.

Now if you play club recreational, forget all this. Just play. It takes more time off from actually playing. During a break, if the delayer is cooperative, then it is possible to discuss it, however, not for me - club rec is club rec.
Click to expand...
 
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