taking too long to serve?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by ralphz, Feb 2, 2017.

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  1. Onetwo72

    Onetwo72 New Member

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    Are there others who support juneau-AK's point? Any supporting evidence or expert interpretation of the "undue delay" rule?

    Can a player, who consistently serves within 2-3 seconds when both the server and receiver are "ready", extend the time to 5-6 seconds once or twice in a match?
    Does it matter if the server's intent is to 'freeze' or confuse the receiver?
     
  2. OhSearsTower

    OhSearsTower Regular Member

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    Which I think is just fair. I find it super annoying if ppl are staring too long at their shuttle before the action begins. I cannot see a reason why one would do that except for annoying the opponent.

    We have one guy in our club who changes his waiting between 1 second and 4 seconds, different every time. Its SUPERannoying and im sure he is doing it for exactly one reason: throw off the opponent.

    Its unsportsmanship in my opinion.

    I dont confront him though because I know he is within the rules.
     
  3. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I don't believe so. Variation in service time is a normal and legal tactic used in service games, as long as you longest hold time is reasonable (people here quoted 5 seconds). As there isn't really a clock to time each serve, this is really subjective. If this is not a tournament, no one really in a fair and authoritative position to make such a call.
     
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  4. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Why do you consider this "unsportsmanship"? In this sport, it's not uncommon to have techniques that have timing offsets to deceive your opponents. As long as there's no rule to prohibit this, it is a fair game. This is typically used to handle aggressive service returner, and yes, upset their timing.
     
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  5. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    I think its more of mind play.
    Long wait will makes your adrenaline & brain on sleep & makes you unready for return. Playing with the timing also confuse the opponent.

    Other hand reciever also had the right to get ready before the shuttle played like rising hand or say wait a sec. Many pro player do this to on a match. Its legal, part of the strategy, & not just a matter of skill only but also mind.
     
  6. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    Firstly, kindly refer to current laws, either here - http://bit.ly/Laws2019, or from the main page here -
    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/laws-of-badminton.134584/

    The latter will be current, right kwun?
    [Hint: it is not]

    Secondly, an umpire can decide any delay by server to be undue delay. The one you mention here relates to being both, you and your opponent, in ready position. In terms of time, as an umpire, I could decide that you took too long (= undue delay), even if you took only 2 seconds from the time you picked the shuttle up at end of rally to delivering service, or 22 seconds.

    In practice, the umpire will make a ruling of undue delay after having the pulse of the game, the rhythm, if you will, within reason. Of the many scenarios, lets consider you take spend 2.5 seconds in the set or ready position, and your opponent 5 seconds, from your very first serves. Both of you maintain that for a few points. And then, your opponent starts serving at 3 seconds. S/he does that again. Now the bar has been re-set. Now if that goes back to 5 seconds, it will adequate for the umpire to penalise with undue delay.

    That your opponent will rebel and argue, is expected. No matter. The umpire will calmly and briefly explain just what is written above - you were serving faster, now you slowed; undue delay (simplest explanation is best).

    Guess what?
    If your opponent keeps arguing about that, the umpire has already set the stage. Your guess is correct as to what happens next.

    You can do the vice versa thing, instead of opponent, it is you.

    This type of undue delay is when both, the server and receiver are in ready position.

    The other undue delay relates to completion of the backward movement of the racquet head.
     
  7. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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  8. whatsthecallUmp

    whatsthecallUmp Regular Member

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    These questions imply that the player is attempting to change the rhythm. This is gamesmanship. That is the reason the law enforcer is appointed - the umpire.

    Can a player do this (or that)? Yes, of course. When the consistent time period suddenly extends to double (or so) then the gamesmanship clauses are activated. Does the umpire meed tp throw the book for this? No. However, it is good player and game management to be on top of such tricks.

    Any player can do anything they want; all of that carries with it some sort of penalty. Once now, and then much later, well, most umpires will forego penalty, but all good umpires will have noted this. The coaches also know this, and the players too.
     
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  9. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    Instead of making another thread, or changing the focus of this thread, I would add now is that in situations when the delays are not persistent, as when they are once or twice, then those could be binned as trivial offence (the sport of football actually has this term). In case of trivial offence, no disciplinary action is taken, and just allowing the game to proceed without more interrruption of the flow is a better option.

    It is also worthy to note that all the officials should interpret trivial offence the same way, otherwise, the dreaded C-word rears it ugly head, and the internet (but not this forum), goes into meltdown.
     
  10. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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  11. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    Hear the response of the umpire about the rule, here - http://bit.ly/2OtKuNY


    This was from the MD, Round of 32 at China Open 2019.

    "There's no rule that says the number of seconds; [just] once you are ready to serve, you must serve."​

    With this sort of explanation, besides it being a non-standard communication, there are a few problems.
    G'wan, take a gander.
     
    #31 psyclops, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
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  12. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    That is a great find.

    i'd note though that if writing what he said, it's worth writing all he said. Just prior to that, he said "Fault - undue delay". (Then as you wrote, he said) "There's no rule that says the number of seconds; [just] once you are ready to serve, you must serve."
     
  13. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    Leaving it to the umpire's subjective sense of timing seems the best thing here. I myself vary the timing of my serve, it's to keep the opponent from learning the timing and gaining an advantage by rushing forward just as I serve. I'd say up to 4 seconds delay is acceptable. Above that...well now you're just being a jerk.
     
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  14. Baddyforall

    Baddyforall Regular Member

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    If that is the case, then Choi will lose min of 20 points in a match. Lol
     
  15. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    He was faulted as a receiver once, there's a clip at this location - http://bit.ly/2PirgY7
     
  16. LiteBulb

    LiteBulb Regular Member

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    I would agree with the faults. The delay is disruptive to the game’s momentum.
     
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  17. whatsthecallUmp

    whatsthecallUmp Regular Member

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    One of the aspects of player- and game- and time-management is that it changes the behaviour and improves game-flow. Here, the umpire spent a few seconds explaining the fault to the offending player's partner. All well and good - if a couple three seconds sends the message to all, then that time used is effective. However, to me, the more appropriate instruction should have been, The receiver is ready, you must be ready to serve. And for the pedant, Service delayed, play must be continuous.

    I am certain, there will be a player who will point this out, eventually.

    Recall, an incident from WS, New Zealand 2019 - http://bit.ly/2DULap8. The player who was the issued a warning pointed to umpire that the opponent was not ready, so she continued to take sip of water. The card was then likely issued for not following instructions, even though the general warning of unsporting conduct was communicated.

    The other thing is, and we see this on the streaming court, what about the other courts? Are the umpires on those courts also enforcing the play must be continuous and undue delay requirements? Also, what was the delay between rallies for the remainder of this match? Did this umpire remain consistent in applying the undue delay for other matches?
     
    #37 whatsthecallUmp, Oct 23, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019

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