LD wins..........

[cooler]

I was surprised that LCW took those chances..

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.

 

[ctjcad]

Yes..

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.

..but time definitely was not running out on LCW, was it?; running out of ideas & being impatient, maybe..And giving in/up is not the same as gambling..

 

[Loh]

I was about to respond Loh's post in a lengthly reply using Krisna's Fraud Triangle analysis (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46201 : Post #14) until I realized how contradicting these two post are :-


Loh, can you be certain that these players are feeling 'proud' or 'honourable' to either
1) Give their teammate a walkover? I'm sure that some players would be feeling very dissapointed that the 'management did not have faith in them' to be able to beat the opponent.

2) Receive a walkover from a teammate? I'm a big Lin Dan fan all the way since years ago when ppl were still calling him 'arrogant 24/7'. I would like to believe that IF he was given a free ride in the semifinals to face LCW.... I'm sure he's thinking 'What wrong with this ppl.... Don't they know I can beat LCW anytime? Why don;t they still trust me???'

So which is which?

Please note that I'm just putting forward a 'general hypothesis' and I also qualify during the opening of my remarks:

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

and

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

 

[jug8man]

okay I understand better. Thanks

 

[zqloy]

..yes, that's what i was wondering also..I wouldn't say it was the wrong strategy, but perhaps LD never let LCW continued to play the same tempo as in the 1st set..Like someone mentioned, LD made LCW play his game..

What i saw, LCW got impatient and tried to outpace LD, forgot about his own knee injury eh? Its not the way he beat LD in the last few meetings. His defense is not up there too, didnt saw much of that trademark dive..... maybe its the injury problem?

 

[pjswift]

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.

Remember too that their rewards/incentives system is also different from the other countries, so they don't stand to lose a lot individually, as would perhaps an Indonesian or Malaysian player.

How many non-China players are willing to sacrifice for such a cause?

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

One reason why European players are not as prone to match fixing because they act more as individuals with self-interest to look after.

Don't call it sacrifice;it's not.It's about making hard choices. Either you obey or you're out.With other countries,if pressed likewise, they may opt out!Non-CHn players have the grit to go against such orders, so pls don't degrade them.
This CHN problem probably coincides with LYB being head coach. Nothing to do with political or economic systems.It wasn't like that or that bad before LYB's time,was it?

 

[pjswift]

when one is losing and out of idea and time, u start taking gambles. That is only option left beside giving in like what taufik did in 06 Japan open.

LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.

 

[hcyong]

My thoughts on these walkover stuff.

1) If walkover (or retirement) is due to gamesmanship, it IS cheating but ...
2) ... you can never prove it; however ...
3) ... fans are not stupid; this occurs regularly enough that an idiot knows it.
4) It is marring the game. It is a game between individuals, not a team event.
5) If we continue like this, we will never achieve the status of tennis, where individuals truly fight for themselves. When an individual wins a title, his name is more important than the country he represents.
6) If we achieve the status of tennis, we will not be like this (but then Thomas/Uber/Sudirman/Olympics will be a farce, too).

(5) and (6) - chicken-and-egg problem.

 

[cooler]

LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.

according to reports from some knowledgable fans at the HKO, lcw was like a bridge wall against Kenneth J.
Hmmm, brick wall on one match, revving down his engine on the final. I'll let others be the judge of the knee injury. (all players have some sort injury but to use it only to explain one defeat and not the others is bogus)

 

[eaglehelang]

LD's just lucky he faced a knee injured LCW. That's why LCW could not sustain his G1 level. With key weapons dented:defence down 60%,movement down 70%, jumpsmash down 80% not to mention netplay in G2 and G3, what options had he?
I'm just so impressed that LCW could still hold LD out for 50 mins.The crowd must be delighted.

Yup, yup. Watching HK Open live and watching the French Open again, LCW didnt do his famous dives as much. When he did, took him longer to get up. French Open, the injury bothered him but he could still hold out. China Open, he sorta gave up. HK Open, as many have posted, he was already drained out.

I was also thinking LCW would be demolished by LD in 2 easy sets. LD himself said in post-match intv : "Lee played fast and it wasn't easy to match him at the beginning. I lost the first game but I managed to win in the end," said Lin Dan. (NST, 3 Dec 07)

 

[cooler]

My thoughts on these walkover stuff.

1) If walkover (or retirement) is due to gamesmanship, it IS cheating but ...
2) ... you can never prove it; however ...
3) ... fans are not stupid; this occurs regularly enough that an idiot knows it.
4) It is marring the game. It is a game between individuals, not a team event.
5) If we continue like this, we will never achieve the status of tennis, where individuals truly fight for themselves. When an individual wins a title, his name is more important than the country he represents.
6) If we achieve the status of tennis, we will not be like this (but then Thomas/Uber/Sudirman/Olympics will be a farce, too).

(5) and (6) - chicken-and-egg problem.

soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

 

[alfa-2]

according to reports from some knowledgable fans at the HKO, lcw was like a bridge wall against Kenneth J.
Hmmm, brick wall on one match, revving down his engine on the final. I'll let others be the judge of the knee injury. (all players have some sort injury but to use it only to explain one defeat and not the others is bogus)

WCH - BMW
HH - BMX
KJ - honda nsx (fast)
LCW - Zonda F(very very fast)
LD - bugatti veyron (freaking fast)

Zonda can beat NSX's easily even when Zonda is having problem with it's 6th gear, cos it didn't need 6th gear at all. but Zonda will have a big big difficulty if the opponent was Bugatti Veyron instead.

Hope you get the picture..............

 

[jug8man]

soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

Bad comparison... those are games where all players from 1 side are suppose to function as a team. In the case of soccer.......... Ronaldo would not give up a clear shot at goal to pass it to Rooney.... just so that Rooney can get top scorer of the season.

A better comparison is with F1... where individual racers are part of them same team. We even remember the big uproar 2-3 years back when Michael Schumachers partner had to give way to Michael to lead even tho the partner was leading throughout the entire race. That did not make F1 very popular either

 

[Joyous]

If the Chinese players ONLY win in China, Hongkong & Macau, I would think that bad line calls & umpiring would be a major factor in deciding who is the winner. But I think they were more successful in other tournaments held in neutral ground.

 

[cooler]

Bad comparison... those are games where all players from 1 side are suppose to function as a team. In the case of soccer.......... Ronaldo would not give up a clear shot at goal to pass it to Rooney.... just so that Rooney can get top scorer of the season.

A better comparison is with F1... where individual racers are part of them same team. We even remember the big uproar 2-3 years back when Michael Schumachers partner had to give way to Michael to lead even tho the partner was leading throughout the entire race. That did not make F1 very popular either

there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

 

[jug8man]

there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

Yes, you have a point. But if I want that kind of sports entertainment I switch to WWE wrestling.

 

[s1nn3r]

Yes, you have a point. But if I want that kind of sports entertainment I switch to WWE wrestling.

Ya ya ya!! If most things are fix like patriotic walkover or patriotic judge. Better watch WWE since we know from the begining is ENTERTAINMENT!!!

This china guys got no sense of profesionalism or ethics at all. Simply selfish to self glory. Bringing more shame to glory to China... Just like those China Dolls they send all over the world... They SERVE the world but bring Shame or Glory to CHINA?

 

[hcyong]

soccer is a team sport. It is also the undisputed #1 sport in the world.
Saying that badminton has to be all about individualism in order to be popular doesnt hold water. Yes, tennis and golf is good examples of popular individual sports but i can give u more popular team sports than popular individual sports: basketball, hockey, cricket, rugby, volleyball, baseball are very popular team sports too.

You know very well what I meant. Teamwork in the context of a team sport like soccer is very different from "teamwork" in the context of what we were discussing about.

 

[s1nn3r]

Teamwork

You know very well what I meant. Teamwork in the context of a team sport like soccer is very different from "teamwork" in the context of what we were discussing about.

No point arguing....

There is TEAMWORK in INTERNATIONAL BADMINTON!!!

China players team up with CHINA Linesman with CHINA judge to win CHina open & HOng kong Open...

THat's TEAMWORK!!!

 

[hcyong]

there can't be no perfect comparison between sports exactly. I was only making a point that pushing badminton all toward an individual theme isn't the only way or a sure way to popularize badminton

It does not matter whether a sport is individual or team. What matters is that each match should be competitive in nature (ie. all sides want to win). Because badminton is an individual sport in nature, the "team" theme makes it less competitive.