LD wins..........

[V3i HoN6]

No. Don't want a holiday for badminton.
I wish I got to watch badminton once every 2 weeks.

 

[Birdwood]

Internet is not a serious place man. This is a forum, I don't see it much different than the stadium or some small gathering of fans. I am expressing my personal views and judgments, and I am not saying that's truth. You are free to disagree, and if you have counter-evidence, I will believe you.

Who is dragging the sports down? The dissatisfied fans, or those ppl who manipulated matches?

Have you ever heard innocent until proven guilty? Maybe you haven't been US long enough to know that. Sorry to disappoint you, burden is on you to prove, not me .

 

[ye333]

You are wrong since I don't think saying such things on the internet is a formal accusation. Just like dissatisfied fans shouting "fake!" or "this guy must have been bribed by that team!" in the stadium, should the police approach them and ask for evidence? I say no. Again, maybe you will say yes.

So I think our difference lies in how seriously we treat such claims as "the WO is a fake!" in an internet forum. You tend to treat it as a formal accusation, but I tend to treat it as just another person expressing his personal opinion.

Have you ever heard innocent until proven guilty? Maybe you haven't been US long enough to know that. Sorry to disappoint you, burden is on you to prove, not me .

 

[kwun]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[CLELY]

LD has won 5 SS titles including latest chapter in Hongkong which was the hardest one to grab it. Seems LD has high difficulty now to defeat LCW compare than TH.

LD booked four of five SS titles without serious obstacle in finale, beat his three compatriots and one MAS veteran player :

- KOR SS -- beat Chen Jin (2 games)
- All England -- beat Chen Yu (2 games)
- China Masters -- beat Wong Choong Han (2 games)
- DEN SS -- beat Bao Chunlai (2 games)
- HKG SS -- beat Lee Chong Wei in rubber games with totally gave LD heavy pressure to win it.

 

[azabaz_ipoh]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

i agree. before it gets personal and veer out of topic. remember, badminton is supposed to be a gentleman's game. we have dissatisfaction but lets not make it the sole thing about badminton.

i for one enjoyed the finals tremendously. both lin dan and LCW played a good game. i was watching from the edge of my seat. both had bad luck and good shots. i guess lin dan deserve the win. LCW could be more mentally tough in the face of what he deem as unfair judgements. LCW fights a good fight so there is really no shame in losing. lets not judge the players themselves and judge one particular game at a time. i think the finals was good. as long as they both played their hearts out. both were emotional and showed passion. so all is good for me. i might be a little disappointed with the calls but i was not there, and i dont know for sure it was unfair and thus i will refrain from accusing people of being cheats (which i hope others will too because really, unless we were really near the court we wont know for sure. replays sometimes give angles that did not show the true flight and landing of the bird). i know LCW was frustrated but he could do well to overcome the feeling of frustration when the calls go against him and stay focused and give a good fight. which i think he did for the most part in the finals. and thus i am satisfied. on to the next battle i say! let the game stays exciting and fair.

 

[pjswift]

i dont see LD playing that great at all in HK final against lcw. LD made lots of errors too.

IMO, bcl played much much better in china open final beating a so called fit lcw than what lin dan had played in HK final but of course the final china open ms final was marred by controversies.

Totally agree with you. LD did not play that great. He only played 80% to defeat LCW playing at 70%.
BCL probably played at 110% to beat an officially restrained LCW at ?? %.

 

[Birdwood]

alright gentlemen, it looks like you are never gonna agree. let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Thanks Kwun. Sorry got carried away and off the topic. My apology to ye333 too. Let's shake hands and be nice to each other .

 

[jug8man]

i MUST AGREE to DISAGREE with Cooler & Loh

well, it is easy to find a scapegoat or excuse than to accept one's own weakness or fault. If the alleged walkout/walkover tactic employed by lyb is yielding titles for the china team, my question is, why don't other teams do it too? Don't tell me other countries are all sweet rose smelling and ethical unlike lyb. For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final? INA can employ soni and santoso to help out taufik too. My simple solution to MAL and INA MS problem is to have HH, roslin, soni, simon to get into QF and/or SF so china can't use walkover or walkout tactics. Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

haha.

Funny how the european (PG and KJ fans) fans here don't whine about it like MAL and INA fans because they know it's fair game.

I have to tread on the dangerous grounds to say that 'AT THE MOMENT' these fans have nothing to cheer about anyway so are not bothering to do so.

For example, MAL has 3 main MS players(lcw, HH, roslin), so is china (LD, bcl, cj) Instead of whining about LD being too fit, why not copy china and have HH and roslin PLAY GOOD enough to reach the QF or SF and tire out the chineses so lcw stands a better chance in the final?

I would venture to say both Malaysia and Indonesia are tempted to do so. However it will never happen even if the team is strong enough to do so.
Team China is the Roman Army. Team Malaysia and Team Indonesia however.. individual glory is so much more important (team events an exception) making these players the charismatic badminton players that their fans hold dear and love.

Let me cite a perfect recent example :-

http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/sport/matches.aspx?id=17832&y=2007&m=12&d=1

Look at the 2007 Hong Kong Open XD Semifinals. The first XD semifinal was an all China affair. It wasn't even played.

Then next up was the second XD event which was an all Indonesian Battle. Even knowing that they will have fresh legged opponents waiting in the finals the next day......... These TRUE BLOODED SPORTMEN whom are also FELLOW COUNTRYMEN still chose to SLUG THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of each other for the HONOUR OF PLAYING IN THE FINALS.

As you can see in the results, The match lasted 47 MINUTES, played into a hard fought RUBBER SET with the scoreline 22-20 13-21 21-19 in favour of NOVA & LILIYANA.

& Thankfully they took the Title the next day as well.


So my point is : You don't make 1 wrong into a right with another wrong.

Long live the Mercenaries! Long live true sportmanship!!

 

[jug8man]

I watched the Finals. I thought Lin Dan played brilliantly in the 2nd & 3rd match againts Lee Chong Wei.

Overall felt the match officiating was good compared to the CO fiasco.

Congrats to Lin Dan a trully outstanding badminton Player. Lee Chong Wei good luck and get well soon!

 

[badMania]

Then next up was the second XD event which was an all Indonesian Battle. Even knowing that they will have fresh legged opponents waiting in the finals the next day......... These TRUE BLOODED SPORTMENS whom are also FELLOW COUNTRYMEN still chose to SLUG THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of each other for the HONOUR OF PLAYING IN THE FINALS.

As you can see in the results, The match lasted 47 MINUTES, played into a hard fought RUBBER SET with the scoreline 22-20 13-21 21-19 in favour of NOVA & LILIYANA.

& Thankfully they took the Title the next day as well.

Yup.....that match was one of the best in Hong Kong Open 2007 and the crowds certainly loved both pairs for showing their very best and fought till the end.

In fact, both pairs were very very exhausted at the end, especially for Nova/Butet who HAD TO PLAY AGAIN the next afternoon.

The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now"

 

[jug8man]

Your solution seems almost like if we are unhappy with the linecalls in China Open, we should ensure lincalls are also unfair in Malasyain Open??? Fighting bad with bad is never a good idea...or what is the saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right?

Personally I think personal pride and inter team competetion makes Danes, Indos, Malaysians etc try to beat eachother when faced in the tournaments...

We should be happy other coaches than LYB seems to think it is an important aspect for wins to be on the court, not off the court!!

It would not be accepted by eruopean players to w/o to help their "team"-mates.. simply beacuse MS is not seen here as a "team" event! Kenneth will ALWAYS try to beat Gade if faced, for example...

/Twobeer

I must agree. I should have put denmark in my previous post as well

 

[pjswift]

Well, good point. I have to say. But instead of asking everybody to agree with the value and culture you value the most, should BWF make the ONLY set of rules & regulations to let people follow? Samething applies to our daily life. We have laws to govern things, other than ethic or moral standards.

Since the other thread is closed, allow me to offer my apologies for offending you personally.Cheung specified my offensive point so i'm aware of it now.My badminton kaki really misled me with that CHN patriot shorthand. (he's very proud of being one).
i have a research intensive background. In media research, there's quite an extensive range of psychographic shorthand.Come to think of it, a few of them would be considered rude here.
By the way,it's not unusual for champions to be draped in their national flag. You see this in tennis grand slam finals as well. Certainly Venus williams and Justin Henin have done it.
It's smart of a MAS supporter to have a MAS flag ready for LCW.Why waste a free tourist-generating opportunity?

 

[ye333]

No need to apologize man. It's clear (after us exchanging a few posts) that we have totally different opinion for the same fact. So indeed no need to argue anymore.

Thanks Kwun. Sorry got carried away and off the topic. My apology to ye333 too. Let's shake hands and be nice to each other .

 

[jug8man]

Yup.....that match was one of the best in Hong Kong Open 2007 and the crowds certainly loved both pairs for showing their very best and fought till the end.

In fact, both pairs were very very exhausted at the end, especially for Nova/Butet who HAD TO PLAY AGAIN the next afternoon.

The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now"

Perhaps it's reaching a boiling point for Team China in context of Coaches, Management, and Players. I'm sure it's festering somewhere. With every action comes an...

 

[Loh]

I must add too that not only are the political systems among China, Indonesia and Malaysia different, to some extent, they have also influenced the players' attitude and commitment to national and individual goals.

China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.

Remember too that their rewards/incentives system is also different from the other countries, so they don't stand to lose a lot individually, as would perhaps an Indonesian or Malaysian player.

How many non-China players are willing to sacrifice for such a cause?

However, as China continues to become more capitalistic, there will bound to be changes to their system and the players' attitude will also change. China players will change to be more individualistic and match manipulation will not be that easy.

One reason why European players are not as prone to match fixing because they act more as individuals with self-interest to look after.

 

[reclinerlover]

I watched the LIVE telecast on ESPN. Instant replay showed that it was OUT. Commentator said the game was riddled with poor line calls in favour of LD. China's player, HK umpire...is that even legal? How do we preserve impartiality?

 

[cooler]

I watched the LIVE telecast on ESPN. Instant replay showed that it was OUT. Commentator said the game was riddled with poor line calls in favour of LD. China's player, HK umpire...is that even legal? How do we preserve impartiality?

hahaha, we are dealing with hairline difference of a line call and u can't even be specific on which line call incident u are talking about lol, u r very accurate in details aren't u?

 

[jug8man]

I was about to respond Loh's post in a lengthly reply using Krisna's Fraud Triangle analysis (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46201 : Post #14) until I realized how contradicting these two post are :-

China players' have been brought up to put the country first and personal interest second. They are willing to sacrifice for the national cause, so forfeiting a match to the advantage of their teammates for the national good is something worthy and honourable.

The fact that Nova/Butet won against the freshly rested Zheng Bo/Gao Ling also PROVED A POINT to Li Yongbo that his tricks and tactics failed miserably. Some of his players were unhappy to be made the scapegoats in the WO incidents You could observe from the disgust in their face and the feeling of "I don't really care now"

Loh, can you be certain that these players are feeling 'proud' or 'honourable' to either
1) Give their teammate a walkover? I'm sure that some players would be feeling very dissapointed that the 'management did not have faith in them' to be able to beat the opponent.

2) Receive a walkover from a teammate? I'm a big Lin Dan fan all the way since years ago when ppl were still calling him 'arrogant 24/7'. I would like to believe that IF he was given a free ride in the semifinals to face LCW.... I'm sure he's thinking 'What wrong with this ppl.... Don't they know I can beat LCW anytime? Why don;t they still trust me???'

So which is which?

 

[ctjcad]

Just my 5 cents-From what i saw...

..thru the webcast, i would agree on most of what the posters had chimed in, in this thread..You guys pretty much covered the match breakdown..

Overall, i actually thought both players played really well, despite the "excuse(s)" that both or either players are fatigue etc. and the line calls were pretty much right on (maybe questionable on 1 or 2 of the calls).
But in short, i thought LD totally upped his pace in the 2nd set and was more the initiator, aggressor/attacker, in comparison to the 1st set..He simply controlled the tempo, esp. in that 2nd set, unleashing his many jumpsmashes, which LCW couldn't return (sorry, i forgot to count how many there were)..In the 3rd set, the momentum continued for LD eventhough LCW tried his best to slow down the match/tempo; but LD never gave him any chance to regain any momentum..
About Birdwood's comment on the strategy that LD attacked LCW's backhand side more in the 2nd and 3rd game, yes, i noticed that also; and it seemed LCW couldn't employ much from his game from that position..The net play, which is one of LCW's strong game element, wasn't working consistently for LCW as well..LCW did have a few nice net kills, but i thought LD either had quite a good read on them or he never gave LCW any more chance play comfortably at the net..

Just watched the match, congrats to LD as he was the better player of the day. LCW on the other hand, was a lil impatient in the rallies this time, he should hv tried to slow down the pace instead of playing LD's game. Definitely wrong strategy.
And also, nice to see some mutual respect shown btw both players.

..yes, that's what i was wondering also..I wouldn't say it was the wrong strategy, but perhaps LD never let LCW continued to play the same tempo as in the 1st set..Like someone mentioned, LD made LCW play his game..

One last tactical error, the flick serve by LCW gave LD point 20. But even if he did not use that the score would be around 21-18 LD favour the errors at 5-5 was the turning point.

..actually, IIRC (if i remember corectly), in the entire match, LCW gave at least 2 of those flick serves, which LD was fully ready and immediately killed them. LCW was probably trying to surprise LD a bit, but I was a bit surprised that LCW took those chances, esp. at that juncture of the game..

One last thing i noticed throughout the whole match was, it seemed like both LD and LCW used/requested a new shuttle after every single point scored. They also seemed to pace and take their time more, in between points and serves..