To pull the racket back and pause is fine. To make any forward move of the racket and then stop is illegal. Everyone should have experience of playing with a service umpire, when you've lost points simply by serving illegally you start to take notice. People must stand up for the rules in the absence of umpires, many people gain unfair advantage purely through ignorance.
Yes, this particular service balk is only done by a handful of players. It didn't really bother me until one of them made it somewhat personal. I agree that "putting up the hand" (kinda like "talk to the hand" heheh ) is the best way to handle players who try to gain illegal service advantages. I actually used it extensively at tonights tournament when I wanted to make sure no one served while I wasn't ready. BTW, I didn't see you there rooting your daughter on!. Oh gosh I think I know who you're talking about. If it's the same person, then holy smokes, is her serve EVER ANNOYING! A lot of other members also eluded to the fact that her personality in general was also very annoying . I guess being relatively "new" to the club I expected the members, whom I thought were higher skilled than the average recreational player, would not need to stoop to using annoying tactics to gain an edge. I was very wrong . But as you said, I'm learning to deal with them by laughing at their antics and turning the tables around on them. I just find it really wild though how "out there" some people are. They do and say things that make you wonder, "What the hell were they thinking?!?!" .
Have I read this right? Am I just stupid? I don't think I have ever seen anyone not move their racket back then forward when serving backhand. If I were to suggest to the people at the clubs I play at that their serve is technically illegal, they would look at me as though I had gone mad! Can someone clarify this please? Thanks Derek.
Re: Re: Re: Sounds dodgy to me! I think if you lost your balance and took a step while you were just poised but hadn't moved your racquet toward the shuttle yet, then it might be okay, although a judge might consider it a delay of game or something. Ultimately, I think it would greatly depend on the situation. However, if you lost your balance and stopped your serve in mid-swing then to my knowledge it would be a service fault. Similar to missing the shuttle (during service) entirely and letting it drop to the floor. I used to think that was a "let" but I believe it's actually a service fault. Again, if you lost your balance before being poised to actually begin your service swing then it could be considered no different than walking up to the T junction and tripping and falling on your face. Not a service fault but do it too often and it would be annoying heheh .
Derek, I don't think anyone has suggested you can't move the racket back then forward. What is illegal is to move the racket forward, stop and then forward again. I.e. once the server is in position the first foreward move of the racket commences the serve and it must be in a single move forwards
Re: Have I read this right? I think you read it right but might be missing some of the background interpretation. Here's 2 examples which will hopefully clear up what people mean when they've been referring to the legal & illegal backswing of the backhand serve. Legal: 1. Place/poise your racquet in your serve "ready position". Ie. Where you want to begin your serve from, with or without a backswing. 2. Place the shuttle somewhere infront/ahead of your racquet to be ready to be struck by your serve. 3. Once racquet, then shuttle, are in place, you begin your service stroke by either backswing and then forward, or just forward, and contact the shuttle. Illegal: 1. Place the shuttle somewhere infront/ahead of your racquet to be ready to be struck by your serve. 2. Poise your racquet toward the shuttle in your service "ready position". Ie. Where you want to begin your serve from, with or without a backswing. 3. Once shuttle, then racquet, are in place, you begin your service by either backswing and then forward, or just forward, and contact the shuttle. What makes the service illegal in the 2nd example is the order in which the service preparation is executed. Holding out the shuttle first and then moving your racquet towards it is considered your serve, whether or not you strike the shuttle. Even if you make a nice pause so that your opponents are surely not to be tricked doesn't make this service balk legal. Any initial forward motion of the racquet to the shuttle must continue to strike the shuttle. Failure to do so is a service fault. I believe the illegal backswing people are referring to is what service judges use to explain this fault to players that commit this particular service fault. This is exactly why almost everyone agrees that the service I originally described is illegal. Hope that clears it up a bit.
Thanks dlp. However, I draw your attention to Viver's post earlier in this thread. He/She states that the racket must have a forward movement only from the start position. I am just stupid! Further clarification needed please! Thanks Derek.
Derek, I see your point, that post is confusing, of course from the start position you will take the racket back and then forward, the fault can only occur if you move the racket forwards to the shuttle as you present them and then go back and forward again.
Derek/dlp, I think Viver was referring to forward movement of racquet only at start of serve NOT start position. The first forward movement of your racquet towards the shuttle is considered to be the start of your serve. So, if you start with shuttle in front of your racquet and then move your racquet head back and start forward (this is the start of your serve) towards the shuttle.
Best way to get back at the fellow is to play against him and crush him totally!!! Frankly, given all the various times and people that I played with/against, I have given on noticing illegal serves unless they are glaringly obvious. The games are all in recreational settings so it really doesn't matter unless the players themselves start to make a big deal out of it. There is one guy (older guy who apparently used to play on the HK National team (I heard) from eons ago) who is so full of himself that he kept on giving advice whether you want it or not. He even ended up telling some of the lady players that he played against that he "serves high to them because they are female knowing that females have weak smashes". I personally don't like playing with him but enjoy playing AGAINST him in trying to knock him on his butt.
WWC, I know what you mean... there are quite a few players I don't want to play with but don't mind playing against . I think badminton, being such a technical sport, with so many styles of doing the same shots, makes it just a hay-day for people to be opinionated and annoying hahaha . In all the other sports I've played, I've never met so many annoying participants, but in most sports there seems to be a limited number, and more universal, ways to do the required techniques. The only other sport I've played where I've encountered many different opinions on technique styles was in martial arts. But perhaps the universal code of ethics in martial arts saves it from developing as many annoying egos as there seem to be in badminton. Don't get me wrong though, there are a ton of ego maniacs in the martial art world as well... from my experience, there just seem to be more among the common participants in the world of badminton . Anyway, I'm straying from the original topic. I haven't had a chance to ask Darryl yet but from everyone elses perspectives it seems that the serve in question is illegal.
Apologize to cause you confusion. Please note as WWC has described: - server places shuttle in position; - positions racquet moving towards the shuttle (no intention to serve from the server); - stop the racquet close to the shuttle; - backward swing and then forward to serve. This is a situation where the service judge can call fault. What I mention about the Chinese team, it was from the experience learned in an international exhibition game. The doubles team were faulted for making the backward swing when serving. According to my coach the serve should be legal. In order to avoid discussions with the officials (you never know how service judge interpret the rules) it was then decided that when using backhand serve, do not make the back swing. Again, they don't do the back swing just to avoid trouble with the service judge.
Here's another scenario... This stuff is commonly done by the people here in my club: when they serve by backhand, 1.) they bring the racquet up together with the shuttle (shuttle being held by non-racquet hand) (shuttle and racquet/stringbed is in contact) 2.) they then bring the racquet back while still holding the shuttle stationary 3.) then they move the racquet forward to hit the shuttle IS this serve LEGAL? what if the scenario is the same exept the shuttle is not in contact with the racquet/stringbed? NOTE: the player that performs this serve does not pause between step two and three but does it in a continuous way.
Re: Here's another scenario... If I have understood the scenario you've described correctly, it's exactly the same serve that I was questioning. I've been informed that such a service method is illegal. Bringing the racquet up with the shuttle is considered a forward racquet motion in the direction of the shuttle. Thus you cannot stop this motion before striking the shuttle or it is a service fault. The fault occurs between the transition of step 1 and 2. A lot of players seem to believe there is nothing wrong with this because they always stop, pause, and then pull the racquet back to begin their actual serve. They believe because they always perform this ritual balk that it can't be considered an illegal feint. However, if such a serve was allowed, there would be nothing stopping players from ever not performing their ritual balk, and just continue on from bringing their racquet up with the shuttle straight into a serve (no pulling the racquet back). Thus they could choose to feint a serve by stopping and bringing their racquet back, or just bring their racquet up into a quick serve. Can you imagine the deceptions you could pull off on every serve! To correct this illegal service is quite easy on the part of the server. They must bring their racquet up without the shuttle in front of it, and then stop and hold the racquet where they wish. Then place/hold the shuttle in front of their racquet. Then at this point they may either swing straight forward and contact the shuttle, or they can bring the racquet back and then forward into the shuttle. I was told this was the only way the backswing of the backhand serve would be legal because it would be clear that there was no intention of starting a service when bringing the racquet initially up/forward (because there was no shuttle held in front of it to hit).
Since there seems to be some confusion over this still have a look at badders.com http://www.badders.com/asktheumpire/?seshid= If I can quote from their umpire..... Check it out an badders
Aha! I think I finally understand this! The sequence is: Racket, Shuttle, Serve. And not Shuttle, Racket, Serve. Hooray! I am playing Badminton tomorrow night and will be checking on the sequence from other players as well as myself. Thank you to everyone who has written on this thread, it has really made fascinating reading. Best Wishes Derek.
You're welcome . Sorry if I wasn't very clear at first, this kind of thing is harder to explain with words. But sounds like we have gotten our questions answered, so happy legal serving to us all .
