Help with Stroke Please!!

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Mason, Mar 15, 2018.

  1. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    More recently I have been posting all of my Doubles games on my YouTube(edited for raise viewing) channel. I haven’t been posting them here as I was trying to work on my stroke and basic footwork. I feel like my positioning is OK. I watch a lot of pro games and have in my mind the basic positioning.

    I normally watch all of my games to see where I can improve the most.
    Here’s one example:
    The players that I was playing against are both considered better than me so enjoyed playing with them. Even though my partner and I were the “weaker” 2 of the 4, We managed to win this game but lost the next two to them.
     
  2. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    778
    Location:
    Manchester
    Odd you decided to play 1/2 Vs 3/4. Would normally lead to uneven games. I don't know if your opponents were playing seriously in this match because they're lifting an awful lot.

    If this is their normal way of playing, then you and your partner are stronger at the front (both of you individually, though your partner in blue is particularly stronger since he is keeping his racquet up more often, looking to apply pressure at the front). You are also likely both weaker in the rearcourt, which might be why their lifting style troubles you so much. I would not be surprised to see in the next two games that they won, that you and your partner simply made more unforced errors as well as 'nothing' shots (shots played without purpose), because you both tend to want to move forwards than backwards, and don't seem to attack cohesively e.g. a few times you drop to the sidelines (away from your partner), and there are too many crosscourt smashes - if you hit straight or to the middle, your opponent has less time to react. This is useful because 1) x-court return to the other rear corner is less likely and 2) your partner can more effectively follow up the attack! If you smash unpredictably, your partner ends up being staying defensive in almost sides position, as he won't know where he has to position himself to attack, which leads to you have two rearcourt attackers and no front player followup!
     
    #362 DarkHiatus, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Mason likes this.
  3. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Yeah I agree with your assessment, this was the first time that I have ever played with this particular person .

    Majority of players at the club I go to lift a lot and do not try to push many shots. Even the more advanced players tend to just lift and lift....
     
  4. Obito

    Obito Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Bangkok
    after I watched your latest video, you are able to play with this guy. I can guarantee you that with your dedication you will eventually beat them in a couple month. I m not sure that is it the way they usually play, if it does then you just need to work a little bit on shot placement and movement then these guys couldn't keep up with you fo sho.

    PS. try to work more on footwork and shot placement to reduce the unforced errors :) and started looking into pronation and supination, so you dont have to lose your balance after hitting each shot which threw you out of position most of the time.
     
  5. Ffly

    Ffly Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    55
    Location:
    ?
    Your opponents are actually very stiff, they don't move much on the court.

    I agree with the other people to work more on your footwork. You walk/run to the shuttlecock most of the time instead of doing chasse steps. When you expect them to hit (smash, clear, whatever), you are just waiting with your heels on the ground instead of being on the ball of your feet (split step).

    Train chasse steps and it will help you immensely : you will get to the shuttle faster so the return will be quicker and you will avoid less than ideal situation where the shuttle is not high enough, etc = easier and better return

    Here is a video to show you how good footwork will help you tremendously :



    Notice how he take big chasse steps, split steps and covers the entire court by himself. He doesn't walk but moves side to side and lunges
     
    Cheung and Mason like this.
  6. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Thank you!
     
  7. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Here are my shots from yesterday. My racket starting point is still wrong during my games :(
     
  8. Ffly

    Ffly Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    55
    Location:
    ?
    I know that jump smashing is fun and all but just for training purpose, it's not recommended until you properly master the smash.

    The only reason you need to jump smash is to have a better angle and quicker return (taking shuttle higher = less reaction time for opponents). However you need to exert adequate power which comes from your body rotation and arm/wrist pronation/supination.

    If you have your feet on the ground, you can push with them to help you give that body rotation and extra power from the ground. When you jump, you don't have the ground to give you that extra momentum, you need to jump a certain way and rotate your body mid-air which is more difficult and which you do not do, resulting in a slower smash. Adding the fact that the angle of the shuttle is not proper, in the end you are better off just smashing from the ground as jumping gives you no advantage and actually exhaust you more.
     
  9. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    I agree 100%. I mostly do it just to practice timing the jump with the stroke and also to get in more exercise. I realize in my case it’s usually a weaker shot.
    Thanks again for your input
     
  10. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    So I noticed I tried to scissor jump on one of my practice strokes last week.
    Besides the fact that I missed the shuttle , is this the correct movement? If so I can try to do this more when I practice.
     
  11. Obito

    Obito Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Bangkok
    nope you move backward then jump up using your non racket side feet. I think there is a video in your thread that talk and teach you how to perform it.
     
  12. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,049
    Likes Received:
    735
    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    England
    It's kind of right in that you have switched your feet mid air, but that's the best that can be said for it. In reality, the scissor kick is not a massive jump, but more of a vertical hop on the racket leg as you reach up for the shuttle, and you rotate the feet mid air as part of the recovery and bodyweight transfer as your weight goes forwards.

    I like this video for demonstration purposes:

     
    visor likes this.
  13. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Ok pretend like I never even asked ha !
     
  14. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    I understand what you are saying but if you look at the footwork here

    @ 4:32 he appears to be jumping off both legs while swinging which is different than the KC badminton video. Which one should I practice ?
     
  15. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,049
    Likes Received:
    735
    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    England
    In reality they are both very similar. However, the KC video is a much better example. By jumping off one leg you really gain a feel for actual movements you will need in a game when you move backwards quickly and need to push upwards to reach the shuttle - this jump will be required from one leg. There may be occassions where it is ok and acceptable to jump from both legs, but I am not aware of them - I believe you will always push a little more with the racket leg even if you appear to be jumping off both feet. This can easily be seen in the KC video, where the movement is to step backwards one step, and then you have to stop your weight moving backwards by loading the back leg, and then move your bodyweight forwards. The process of loading the back leg means you have to jump using the racket leg predominantly. You can see this in the clip with the womens singles player at the start of the video.

    In summary: just copy KC. He is a very high level player and I think his content is excellent. The video you posted seems to be attempting to simplify the content for beginners, but the reality is that the technique isn't all that helpful, and by comparison it is less useful.
     
  16. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,129
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    Location:
    'round here....
    And this is always the case for a scissor jump, even in the video you (@Mason) posted. This is what you should learn and practice.

    There are other jumps used in badminton, most common the China jump, but there's also a rotating jump for a jump smash when jumping with both legs, but you need tons of time (How much does a second weight? Exactly.) for that, and a handball jump (jumping off one leg while moving forward, landing on both feet), almost exclusively used in doubles. For the next years, you don't need to worry about those last two.
     
    Mason likes this.
  17. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    778
    Location:
    Manchester
    I don't necessarily think it is simplifying it, rather he demonstrates a different type of rearcourt footwork which is very geared towards jump smashing in doubles.

    There is one reason why you would want to use two feet over one. The reason is that you will gain more height with a two footed jump over one foot.

    The big thing is that by jumping UP, you must make sure you are jumping forward as well, otherwise you are going to suffer on the recovery. This means your movement backwards before you jump has to be extremely quick.

    Crucially, to make it worth it, your jump smashes must be consistently steeper than your standing smashes. If you cannot hit a jump smash steeper than your regular standing smash, then it is simply not worth the effort gaining the height, because you don't get extra power from jumping up, only angle.

    It is an aggressive footwork that you would only use if you have forced your opponent to lift high i.e. have a very strong advantage - you partner covers any potential net replies with a kill, and you are solely focused on moving back, jumping up high to contact it early and steeply in order to continue to apply pressure.

    You standard singles and doubles footwork is the one KC demonstrates. It is the most versatile way of moving - you can use this scissor kick style for almost any rearcourt shot without giving anything away. It has a good balance of speed of retrieval, contact angle, and balance (recovery).
     
    MSeeley likes this.
  18. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,049
    Likes Received:
    735
    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    England
    You may be right, but if I were going for a two footed jump smash, I wouldn't want to see that footwork in that video either. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but for a good jump smash I would expect to see the non racket foot come a little closer to the racket foot prior to the jump, rather than keeping them wide and just switching the feet. They don't need to come completely together, but there is a distinctive shift in foot position.

    By way of demonstration, a good video is by Jimmy Lin:


    I think thats a much better demonstration of a good jump smash footwork following the pattern 0:33.
     
    DarkHiatus and Mason like this.
  19. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Thank you for this !


    Ok so I noticed some attempted footwork in my last game last week. While I am doing this in games I feel like I am doing it properly but It definitely doesn’t look right. For some reason my right leg is going to the side and not really forward which doesn’t seem to be correct . Do you all notice that same thing?

    Also any suggestions as to a “cue” that could help get my right hip and leg more forward and not out to the side ? ( I feel like I do well when I get one or two cues for correction).... perhaps focusing on bringing my left leg back more ?? Any thoughts ??
     
  20. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    217
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Thank you in advance for everyone’s help
     

Share This Page