World Championship umpire subtracts point by mistake, no remedy?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by event, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. event

    event Regular Member

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    Bizarre incident in the World Championship R16 WD match. Jia Yifan was serving at 5-3 in the third game, and Kong Hee Yong lifted the shuttle to the back, where the line judge called it out. The Koreans challenged and suddenly the score changed to 4-3 (at 1:20:33 on the video clock). When the Koreans lost the challenge, the score returned to 5-3.

    Presumably, the umpire got confused and thought he had already awarded the point upon the line judge's call - as often happens, necessitating a removal of the point, pending the call review by HawkEye.

    Unfortunately, the umpire did not admit the mistake, presumably having forgotten what the score had been, and he was joined in this memory loss by the service judge, who had just watched Jia Yifan serve from the odd court. The referee was called on and in the end, the Chinese pair just had to live with the mistake.

    I know video replay has never been approved as a way of second-guessing an umpire's eyesight on a fault call, etc. but how often is a player cheated out of a point by memory loss??!! Am I right in assuming the rules have no remedy for this, just as they have no remedy for an umpire's failure to correctly perceive a shuttle hitting a player's body or going under the net, etc.?
     
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  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Massive failure of umpire, service judge, tournament referee (useless).
     
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  3. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    It is very unfortunate, however I blame most of the fault to the instant replay system been very rare. Even very experienced umpires are often beginners when on tv court as they rarely have a chance to practice the routine of the replay. It doesn't help how much BWF focus on pointing it out to the umpires (and they do) but without practice there going to be mistakes in my opinion...
     
    #3 stradrider, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  4. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Umpires' major faults piling up lately...
     
  5. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Exactly! :D

    I also noticed player's unforced errors piling up this world championship... While some matches where phenomenal, some other just terrible to watch so many mistakes they make... Perhaps BWF should start firing incompetent players as well ;)
     
  6. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    I know you are being highly sarcastic and I read, appreciate and learn from your comments on this topic (rules) a lot but please... you know it's very different and that comparison between player's faults and umpire's faults cannot be made. As sarcastic as it is. We all know faults happen. Umpires included. Yet one has to acknowledge it's been ridiculous lately and just saying whether directly or using sarcasm that it's ok for umpires to make faults at this level is IMO wrong. It's not by just saying "it happens it's ok" that the sport will be better. If players can improve so do umpires. The sport has been evolving for the past few years. It's faster and umpires have to evolve too or at least the system.
     
  7. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    Shouldn't worry about incompetent players though. They are getting kicked out straight away.
     
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  8. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I am glad to hear my posts been noticed :).
    Sorry for the sarcasm, but you do realize that BWF is doing a lot of work improving the quality of the umpiring? All the umpires, even at the highest level are regularly assessed and meet together to discuss what can be done to make the game better. Why do you assume they are not?

    Do you really think the situation is that bad? How many total mistakes umpires have done during this world championship? You saw one, did you see more? Do you realize that there were like 250 matches or something, most of them recorded in some way? Even if there were 2-3 mistakes umpires made during that time, do you realize how many split second decisions an umpire have to take during just one match? To say the truth, looking at these numbers I think umpires in this tournament doing absolutely incredible job, no discussion...

    Making good decisions is only small part of the job an umpire is doing. A lot of important work is presenting the match, all the announcements and interactions with players and other officials that we take for granted takes a lot of work to master. Umpire in the chair does not just calling faults, he is a leader of the team that includes line judges and service judge. He needs to make sure that everything is working perfectly. The match look like it's going very smooth without interruptions, players do not fight each other, coaches doing what they are supposed to do and all looks civil and beautiful. Do you know how much skill needed to control the match and make sure everything goes as it should? I will tell you - it is not easy...

    Umpire job is the most under appreciated in badminton. All the time and effort these people put in order to make the sport fair, fun and amazing. When did you last time hear someone say anything good about umpires? Did you notice that players change but it is the same people sitting on the umpire chairs all day long... I think people could be more patient and also it would be nice if somewhere someone would actually mention them in a good way and may be even once say thank you...

    Phew.. sorry for the rant...:rolleyes: got a bit cared away...
     
    #8 stradrider, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  9. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I appreciate the umpires have a difficult job and probably have too many decisions to make.

    What I am disappointed in is the umpire and tournament referee do not to do anything to address the root problem. They don't seem to review the score nor listen to the players.

    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...inal-19-23-august.182204/page-70#post-2744855

    Somehow I can't post the direct Facebook link. Please scroll down to the post by @lurker which has a link to the clip.


    If I were the player and it happened to me, this is cheating.
     
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  10. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Good rant! A lot of truth here. Umpires' good work is never acknowledged. As for the Worlds I have seen several other umpiring mishaps. During the 1/4 final of the WD match between MatsuTaka & Du Li, in the middle of a rally the umpire called a let because the Japanese coach apparently shouted. That wasn't the smoothest way to penalize the Japanese coach.

    Also the error discussed in this thread is just amongous at the stage of this tournament watched from all over the world. I dont blame it all on the umpires. I raised my concerns already in another thread saying they actually need more help. Whether it be more people or technology. That's more what I have in mind when I say it's time to evolve.
     
  11. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I agree with your frustration. That is a serious mistake have been made. I would not blame on the referee as he have no possibility to watch every point on every match, he has other duties. It was a fluke in umpire's workflow with instant review, and service judge had the same one I think and he is one of highest level very experienced umpire.

    This kind of mistake is known and discussed a lot in meetings. But it still happened, what can I say... And again, in my opinion that is other side of a good thing - we got instant review that is great and we correct a lot of line judging mistakes with it. However it is very expensive and because of that only a few matches and only in the highest level tournaments got it and as a result umpires don't have practical experience with it... You win some, you loose some...
     
  12. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    We should be careful when judging these situations, not all of them are as it seems. I didn't see that part of the WD match but from your description umpire did what he must do according to rules, so here it is not a mistake, sorry.
     
    #12 stradrider, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  13. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Here from the rules (ITTO):
     
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  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Are we talking about the same problem?

    The problem is not the review system. The instant review system worked fine.

    The problem is a point was subtracted from the score during the review process:

    - The Chinese pair served at five points,
    - the shuttle required a review,
    - during the challenge review the point score of the chinese pair was reduced by a point to four points
    - challenge was unsuccessful,
    - umpire added a point to score 5
    - umpire called the score 5 points to the chinese pair

    The changing of the score back down to four I believe can only be done by the umpire through the software. Why did he do that?


    This problem cannot be attributed to a ‘fluke’. There is a mistake and a bad one. If the software has a problem, BWF better have a good audit to identify it and correct it as this system presumably is used regularly in professional tournaments. It’s lucky that in this case it got caught on TV. What if it is a more common problem? Are there any unreported cases?

    Why three highly qualified people can not identify this error? It’s supposed to be a professionally run tournament.
     
  15. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    It is not the software.

    What happens is that umpires that are not used to IRS usually add the point in the tablet right after the rally too quickly. It has always been done like that and in most tournaments it's not a problem. However umpires experienced with IRS know that they have to wait to make sure there is no challenge and only than add the point to insure they do not do it twice. In this situation, an umpire didn't add the point but than thought he did automatically and so he substructed it right away thinking he is correcting a mistake. Why he didn't remember the score? i don't know, but often new situation throws you off... Why didn't service judge notice the mistake? He should have, but memory plays tricks with us... we know that witness testimonies can be often absolutely wrong and memory of people can be easily manipulated. Why is that?
     
    #15 stradrider, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  16. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    We accept that mistakes can occur. It’s the system for identifying the mistake that is at fault. Does the software have an audit feature with time stamps for the umpire and tournament referee to review? What would happen if this is game point or match point in the gold medal match of the olympics. .... you can imagine a riot will occur.
     
  17. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    In gold match referee would be watching the score as there is only one court, I know they do, I have seen that. I have seen mistakes were corrected in the gold match (not Olympics) exactly like that. But nothing is infallible...
     
  18. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    No, you are not. The umpire calls any faults (assisted by the service judge for the service). This is clearly a mistake in management of the score, not perception. Therefore, it is a rule of law, and thus per §17.6.8 the players are right to call the referee. In this situation, the players are correct to call the referee, and the referee (after a mistake by umpire and by the service judge) is supposed to sort this out.


    This error should not happen, but – as often happens in errors – it comes in a new situation. After the problems with IRS, umpires got extended training on how to manage challenges, to unify handling, umpire software management, wording. But an IRS call because a line judge is unsighted is quite rare, and requires a completely different handling.

    Looking forward, how can this error be avoided? I'd argue that we should give referees the option to see the match history. Then, the referee would easily see that an undo has happened. For example, my software can do that, and it would look like this:
    [​IMG]
    Here, the referee can easily see that nothing has been scored. Since this may happen again, I'm thinking of improving this log; for example with a mouseover you could see the placement of all players on court, or switch times to relative.

    While there is a button to get that view from the umpire's chair, the umpire is not likely to do that under stress. However, I think we should show undos in the umpire interface for one or two points, so that the umpire can see what they did as well.
     
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  19. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Showing the undo for longer time is great idea as that would be an indication and reminder for the umpire he did something that lead to the problem. I am not sure though that the time stamp in general would help that much without video review as there could have been a mistake earlier and than we wouldn't know really what was corrected?
     
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  20. event

    event Regular Member

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    So apparently, the BWF disagrees with you on this point. Their statement on the case reads: 'under the laws of badminton, the referee is not able to overrule on a point of fact, such as the score'.

    It seems that to the BWF, a point of 'fact' (i.e. 'what's the score?') and a point of judgment (i.e. 'Did that shuttle brush his shirt on the way by?') are to be treated the same - in other words, not by the referee.
     
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