[VIDEO] Singles Progression

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by DarkHiatus, Feb 14, 2017.

  1. bbirdman

    bbirdman Regular Member

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    Not read all the comments so maybe something repeated, you have obviously got to high standard of playing. But for the level you have got to your main problem is your overhead hitting action seems wrong like your jabbing or poking at it rather than fully supinating and and chopping into the shuttle before pronating.
    I used to find when my power was going down in the past it was because there wasn't enough supination before pronation, I would supinate earlier and more exaggerated and this would improve power.
    What's also interesting is in watching this video I'm getting an idea of where Lee Jae Bok is coming from with his smashing videos, which in isolation are not really orthodox, but at looking at your technique I could see how is ways could improve your technique. He talks about club players flapping at the shuttle.
     
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  2. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    I've had a couple of sessions to explore this a bit more.

    When we do a fixed corner drill without random feed, my overhead movement is much smoother and more powerful, using the full motion.

    When the feed is random in ANY form (even including serve - my mind seems to view the short/long serve as two possibilities), then I have significant hesitation such that I receive the shuttle late.

    90% of the time I do not begin to prepare (supinate) before my final foot step is grounded which leads to an abbreviated stroke which looks stabby/flappy/incomplete.

    Im going three ways on this:
    1) better mental preparation to minimise hesitation
    2) faster footwork to get behind the shuttle even if hesitating
    3) racquet preparation during footwork if hesitation cannot be avoided
    4) minimising overhead "wrist shots" in training for now, until I can reliably use the full movement. Wrist shots are useful for fast interceptions and also up the tempo of a rally which can be a problem - I need to be able to control the tempo, not just raise it all the time.

    The third is one that is also noticeable on my late forehand rearcourt side - a couple of posts have mentioned I do not prepare my racquet until the final step lands which is way too late to get enough power for a clear.
     
  3. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I'm a little hesitant to recommend this, as there are potentially some downsides, but what the hell:

    You can try changing your style of overhead preparation. There are many different prep variations and none is objectively best. However, sometimes using a particular style of prep can help overcome a specific issue.

    In your case, try turning your palm out so the (forehand side) strings are facing out the side of the court. For example, see Peter Gade's prep. This puts your arm in a position where it is already supinated / externally rotated. For some players, this can help prevent them "forgetting" to make those movements when they swing.

    The downside is that changing your preparation may mess up your shots / timing. Personally I've found it wasn't a big deal, and indeed I'm comfortable using different prep in different situations; but nevertheless I'm careful in coaching not to meddle too forcibly with this sort of thing.
     
  4. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    This is a wise comment, and relevant to me in particular.

    I tend to be very polite and encouraging to other players. I like to make my opponents feel good about themselves. I feel bad when someone is having a bad time. I rarely celebrate even a fantastic shot, because I feel bad for my opponent. For competitive play, I have too much empathy.

    It may be partly because I grew up in Japan, where (generally) people are a lot more polite. I just got back from a holiday in Japan after many years away. I had forgotten how much I missed all the bowing, the "irrashaimase"s, the "onegaishimasu"s, the "arigato gozaimashita"s.

    I was invited to play at a badminton club in Yokohama, which turned out to be a rather hardcore school and university club. You know, the kind of place where they have 6 year old kids who can clear full court.

    One interesting habit I noticed, among some of the older players, was that they all "shouted" before every point. Of course I've seen this sort of thing on video before, but it's different when you're on court. I speculate this might be particularly relevant to people who are normally very polite, as a way of "setting" a more aggressive / serious mindset before each rally. I tried it myself and quite like it.

    I also played doubles with a woman who, before every game, would clasp her hands and bow slightly to everyone, saying "onegaishimasu". I liked that so much I may start doing it over here. People will think I'm crazy. I mean, more than they already do. :D

    (But once the game started, she moved like oiled silk and belted the crap out of the shuttle. We were playing against two men and they didn't stand a chance.)
     
  5. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Just be like Chen Long

    Opponent does something amazing? Smile.
     
  6. edogaktop

    edogaktop Regular Member

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    There is this guy in my club (he is actually the best among us all) who will apologize every time he successfully does trick shots. I actually find this very annoying, since he does trick shots all the time.

    Being Asian, I usually limit myself to these actions to express myself during a game: commend good shots (from the opponents or my double partner), smile when opponents get lucky and apologize when I get lucky.

    Of course when I play with my friends, I will mix some taunting/trash talking :D
     
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  7. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Yes, it's easy to forget that frequent apologies can be annoying to other people -- especially when you are actually a stronger player in a group of weaker players! Sometimes an apology can make them feel bad...
     
  8. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

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    Guilty as charged here likewise. Thank you for making me aware of the issue; I never imagined that these comments could be seen as rude or taken the wrong way around. Got to fight the urge to congratulate my opponents for a thorough and proper defeat when I gave it my all (or go against lesser opponenets but where's the fun in that lol :D) .
     
  9. edogaktop

    edogaktop Regular Member

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    I forgot to actually give some advice to @DarkHiatus

    You obviously have improved a LOT. Your biggest strength I think is that you are very, very fast and very fit. Unfortunately your biggest strength also leads to your biggest weakness: your backhand. You compensate weak backhand by moving very fast and doing a lot of overhead shots.

    While doing overhead shot in general is stronger than even the best backhand shot, having to move too much makes you super "busy" during the game, and gives very little time for playing strategic and deceptive shots, a very important element in single games.

    (My guess is this is partly the reason why you like flick/high serves; when you have a weak backhand, your opponent's standard strategy will be to return to your deep backhand corner - I imagine this is still troublesome for you)

    Watch any of Taufik Hidayat's games but this time try to think what shots you would choose if you were in his position. You'd be surprised how often he preferred to play backhand shot in the situation where we might think overhead shot is the better option. Having a very good backhand technique allows him to be very relaxed (almost lazy even) - and in turn it gives him time to plan ahead and conserve his stamina.
     
  10. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Just took another look at the last video. You played a very good, hard game of singles, with some excellent shots -- particularly reverse slices.

    At 4:54, you hit a great clip smash, cross-court from round-the-head. :)

    I feel in many rallies you are running yourself silly, through too much flat play. It looks like some doubles instincts are taking over the singles choices. For example, at 7:27 you play a very flat lift that goes straight to your opponent's racket in the middle of the court. It would be better to hold net here. 4:42 is another example of a rally where you get into a lot of trouble by playing too flat and not holding the net.

    6:18 is an example of something you should do more often. Your opponent played a good cross reverse slice, but you took it early and played a straight net shot. You then recovered close enough to the shuttle to be threatening at the net. And in fact you do the exact same thing the next rally. Build more confidence in your straight net. Your movement backwards is good enough that you can play to the net more.

    7:13 is interesting. You play a good straight reverse slice, but your recovery movement is odd. After playing a drop shot you should normally make a quick, long chasse back to a "neutral" position "facing" your opponent. Instead you are stepping back to a neutral base; this means your feet are crossing as the opponent hits the shuttle, so you are not really ready to move off.

    If you are going to make that kick-through movement where your racket foot finishes in front, then you must commit and run straight for the net. This is mainly appropriate when you hit a good smash or a devastating slice, and you know your opponent's options are very limited.

    Nevertheless you do get there early, and then try to finish the rally with a flat shot (which goes in the net). This seemed a bit forced. Net spin would have been great here (look where your opponent's feet are). Rather than always forcing the flat play, try approaching with the racket below your hand. This gives you more reach, and allows you to hold the opponent with the threat of either tight net or a lift.

    At 7:54, I think you should stay slightly closer to your net shot. You have recovered a long way to your backhand side, because you're worried about getting flicked that side. But this means you are not threatening the net enough. The larger recovery movement also messed up your movement timing a bit, as your feet are close together when your opponent is hitting. Try using a smaller, faster recovery movement when you play net. That double chasse recovery is just a little too much -- unless you're desperate.

    8:28 is interesting. This was another opportunity to hold net. You were early on this shot; therefore I was going to say you should not be punting it back up to your opponent. However, your opponent has the same (very common) footwork error after his drop shot: he has recovered by bringing the racket foot forwards. So in this case, your lifting instinct is good. If you spotted his footwork issue and chose to punish it, then very well done for superb tactical awareness. :)

    8:58 -- another chance to play straight net, keeping the shuttle closer to you. Instead you lift back to the area where your opponent already is (and cross-court too). A useful tactical rule of thumb: never cross a cross. Like all such rules it should sometimes be broken, but it's generally good advice even at a professional level.

    I think you only played one true cross-court clear in the whole game. It's a useful attacking shot; adding it to your arsenal greatly increases the difficulty of your opponent's court coverage.
     
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  11. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Building on what I'd previously stated as training goals:
    - minimising hesitation
    After Rasmussen drill daily for 5-15 mins (20 mins is exhausting!) combined with 4 corner multishuttle feeds, I've improved a bit. Still much more noticeable my speed of movement on a pre-determined feed compared to random feed. Is this always the case? It seems so hard not to move early when you know where the feed is coming!

    - quicker/explosive movement
    I have been working on this in a counterintuitive manner. I've been aiming to stay relaxed and really get good contact with the middle of the stringbed, to help promote rhythm which should speed me up. I think this works, but it's difficult to avoid getting tense.

    - earlier racquet prep
    Improved a lot I think. My racquet elbow is more often in a high position which seems to offer more options.

    - forehand rearcourt
    Been working on both the step out and jump out wrt footwork and racquet positioning. I seem to be unable to take the shuttle on a side on stance, keeping my rear shoulder in place. This is leading to me "kicking through" (it's not a kick through as it's initiated by my shoulder rather than my lower body), being too square on, which has the effect of pulling me really close to the tramlines which cramps my swing up. Moving backwards rather than diagonally and giving myself more room is helping to make the recovery easier too.

    My training has seemed to have made me quicker and I'm getting to strokes earlier. One problem I'm having now is that I'm "running into" shuttles. I'm encountering blocks/nets at shoulder height which I'm unused to, so I'm mistiming a lot of my forecourt strokes. One big weakness is my lifts have become weaker, landing short of the doubles line more often than not...I really am not used to taking the shuttle so high where it's all finger and wrist, and I can't use my arm to generate racquet head speed!

    Thanks for the comments!

    The flat play remarks are warranted - I have been practising pushes/driving with my mixed partner a reasonable amount, as otherwise I play a very smash/net doubles game which tends to exclude my partner. The other side is that I felt my net shots were weaker than normal this match, so I didn't want to play them as much. They were not being killed, so in hindsight I should have kept the net pressure up, even if it is only slight.

    I'm always surprised when a crosscourt clip smash comes out right - the body positioning is just so awkward in any situation that I would want to play it! In my head all I saw was my opponent very straight on and a chance to hit the space :D

    By the recovery from forehand drop, long chasse in, would you be in a left foot forward stance? The right foot forward(ish) stance is the one my coach advocates with a step-through, and says the chasse recovery should only be used when playing a clear where there's plenty of time to recover. Personally, I feel at risk from the straight net so I bias my stance there, but I acknowledge that a second forehand rearcourt stroke often puts me in trouble. What are your thoughts?

    The double chasse recovery from the net shot is...inefficient :p I initially thought my net shot was good, so I chasseed back to prepare to kill, then decided my net shot wasn't good enough so I chasseed again to have a more central base. If you determine that your net shot was poor, what should you do?

    Definitely didn't notice my opponents footwork - all I noted was that he jumped out a LOT (and quite high) which could eventually tire him out. I would say I was generally aware of if he was anticipating a net shot, and chose to play a lift instead, but didn't notice his feet position as the reason.

    I have never heard the crossing a cross. It makes sense, but I have never seen it written. Contrary to @Cheung 's teachings of playing to the non-diagonal corners to force a momentum change?

    Fortnight to my next tournament - hopefully I will make some headway in improving my forecourt and forehand rearcourt play. I'm continuing on my original objectives as I've seen enough of a difference from those that I want to keep it up!
     
  12. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Yes -- left foot slightly ahead, so you are "facing" your opponent a little. This generally provides the best overall court coverage, and it's the most natural way to land following the chasse. Of course this can be changed if you have a specific tactic in mind.

    The most important thing is that neither foot should be far ahead of the other (typically that would mean the racket foot ahead). Doing that makes it very difficult to cover the whole court.


    That doesn't make sense to me, since a chasse is a faster (but shorter) movement than running steps, as well as being more "adaptable" to slightly different distances or timings.

    If I hit a high clear, I have plenty of time and can just walk back to base (saving some energy). If I hit a drop shot (or a flat clear), then I have less time. Using steps risks getting caught with my feet crossing and close together, when my opponent is hitting the shuttle. A chasse avoids this.

    This is something we have been working on at Parklangley with two groups of national-level juniors (covering a wide age range). Many of them -- including a national champion! -- were getting caught out, especially in their forehand corner, because of this recovery issue. (Full disclosure: I'm only occasionally involved in the coaching and absolutely cannot take credit! But I am fortunate to work with players at that level, thanks to the indulgence of head coach Rob Kettle.)

    There are of course exceptions. In particular, I don't recommend watching Lin Dan for this, as he has an unbelievable ability to change his footwork according to the situation; he can make certain movements that would screw over almost anyone else, due to footwork quality and a godlike ability to read the game.

    There are some additional nuances here, that can be used even by players who are not Lin Dan. ;) You will often see a "travelling step" after the recovery chasse, where the racket foot starts to come forwards as the opponent is hitting. This leads to a delayed or second split. This is one of many fascinating subtleties of footwork at the world-class level. (While this appears similar to what you are doing, it's actually very different, because you are missing the initial chasse recovery.)

    However, even that is a very advanced topic. For most of us, the more "basic" issues are more relevant -- and these are things that national standard players have been working on, mind you!


    Ah, that makes sense. Given your evaluation, I think your footwork was correct. If your net shot is poor, then you must prioritise covering the court over applying pressure at the net. If that means scrambling back further from the net, with your movement timing a little off -- then so be it. Do what you have to do; a chasse here was a good choice, because it allows you to stay on balance despite being "out of rhythm".

    Possibly your evaluation was wrong, but it is hard to tell from the sidelines!


    That's still good tactical awareness. You should be pleased with yourself. :)


    I don't think there is a contradiction.

    Let's say your opponent has played a cross-court drop. You have four options. Two of them break the "rule" of not crossing a cross -- i.e. cross lift back to the same corner, and cross net. That still leaves straight net (forcing the longest travel) and straight lift (forcing a momentum / direction change).

    The problem with crossing a cross is that it frequently puts you under a lot of pressure to cover the court, as it opens space for your opponent to hit straight while you are still positioned cross. And in return, it gives you...what exactly?

    If your opponent has instead played a straight drop shot, then none of your options break the "rule" (which of course, is not really a rule).
     
    #152 Gollum, Nov 25, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I think this really depends on how far back in the court the person is. The low camera angle means it is difficult to judge how far back in the court the drop is played.

    A cross netshot with a cross netshot back is pretty uncommon. But it all depends on the position of the opponent and how comfortable you are in your own position. Remember there is about an 80:20 guideline to changing the opponent's momentum. So there are some situations that come into the 20% and this is one of of them.
     
  14. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Good point. That's one reason that these comments should always be taken as suggestions/ideas, rather than "you definitely did something wrong, never do that again".


    I wasn't thinking of cross net specifically, but rather the general tactical issue of following your opponent's cross-court shot with one of your own (e.g. cross drop followed by cross lift).

    If you have recorded a game, it can be useful to analyse this. Work out how often you play cross after your opponent's cross-court shot, and how often you play straight.

    Very often players play too much cross-court in general, but it's specifically problematic after their opponent's cross-court shot.

    As you say, this is one of those "80:20" type things. Sometimes crossing a cross can win the rally, because you see your opponent is not able to cover it. And you don't want to be too predictable; if you never cross a cross, then every time your opponent hits cross, he can eliminate two corners from his court coverage!
     
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  15. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Time for an update as I've played another tourney. I'd won a close match but unfortunately the opponent was too young to video, therefore here is a video of me being beaten (again). I am playing in the Li-Ning top.



    I'll jot down my feelings about this match and see how it marries with others' analyses.

    Overall, the match I performed better in the first game, where opponent was playing to my style - faster rallies moving into the net. I'm particularly happy that in the first game, I tried to build a point, and managed to find a few opportunities to "kill" a lift to my forehand with a straight smash, rather than get trapped in the late forehand position which frequently happened previously.

    In the second game, I noticeably struggled when my opponent kept me in the back and slower the pace of the game down. I felt I could only smash, clear or drop ineffectively; the clears were going short, my smashes were too central, and my drops were too slow. My opponent clearly had control of the second game where it was all about his unforced errors which were few as he was a reasonably accurate player.

    I feel that my racquet technique being too "arm"y is stopping me from playing all of the shots I need to from any corner, especially from the back corners, but is also present in my defence, where I am struggling.

    I feel my footwork started off okay, but in the second game, I started to move before my opponent had played his stroke, leading to many double movements. I also feel that my base may have been too far forward, given that I did not struggle to move forward often, but frequently was getting caught moving back.

    I want to improve my racquet technique to be more 'wristy' or 'finger' powered. Is this reasonable?
     
  16. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Overall assessment.

    I think the improvement is still there in the footwork. Some parts of the rhythm and speed of movement can be improved... For instance, when you bounce on your split step, the body movement is the same pace. What you can do is bounce and make a fast first step. This is what we call rhythm.

    Another technical point is that although your strokes have improved, you are not yet able to to keep the quality of the shot if the hitting point is in a slightly suboptimal position.

    Your decision making is a bit suspect. Quite a few times on forehand you smash turning the body. It would have been better to do the flying step outwards and stick smash.



    The strokes have improved although you still grip the racquet a little high. You are certainly correct you need to learn the subtle movement of the fingers more (please don't write 'more wrist' ) to control the shuttle and generate flicks and power. What has happened here is you are limited by your strokes. For instance, at the net, at a certain hitting point height and body position, you usually only play a straight net or cross court. I. E. Limited reply options. So, the opponent has learnt to anticipate your replies and can control you. Your net game is also not fully developed. You don't have high lifts from a low down position. You are unable to use your fingers to lift the shuttle from a knee height. Without that disguise, the opponent is 90% sure that you will play a netshot.

    Second game, you don't feel like you can control the opponent. You tried to hit through the opponent when he controlled the court. Most of the game you played a predictable downward shot. The quality of your drops is not good enough at this level and it is due to the lack of finger techniques. You are easier to read because your shots use a lot of arm movement.
     
  17. rbynck

    rbynck Regular Member

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    You need to practice your long backhand service. If u feel like you can't hit it far enough/hard enough then a great tip would be to angle the shuttle so that u hit straight onto the cork :)
    Against a player like your opponent you really need to think about the first 2-3 strokes. You seem to "stress" your return of service and put it near the middle a lot of the times - same with your drops. He has some good reflexes/blocks and overall better technique, however he makes a lot of mistakes. I would have loved to see some flatter lifts from your forehand into his backhand as he doesn't protect it at all (putting his racket up after service ex).
    Scissor kicks are for creating power, however most importantly to be able to follow up shots. I believe there was a discussion about this somewhere. At 5:18 you smash with a scissor kick but land only with a slightly bend leg and a high center of gravity, which makes it impossible to follow it up. Smashing probably wasn't the right decision, but it most likely could've been followed up :)
     
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  18. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    I noticed this in the difference between myself and the opponent. How do I practise this? In the Rasmussen drill I tend to recover gently and move out quick, but it seems it's at the same pace throughout the movement?

    Agree - I know this myself after I recover because the crosscourt block looks so dangerous after I land. It means I have to hit the line on my forehand smashes. This is technique based - for some reason I find it very hard to play a forehand jumpout smash without rotating my body. In my head, the sequence is a jumpout + smash. I just happen to twist in midair because my shoulder comes forward. I think this is linked to my heavily arm based stroke.

    Should I move to a lighter racquet or will that not help? Or should I just keep it in mind to hold my racquet lower down?

    Exactly what I meant by my "arm"y swing. I see others play at full arm extension at the net, and are able to play a wide array of strokes with limited shoulder movement. I tend to get much closer to the shuttle in order to keep my arm under control.

    I really felt my limited stroke selection in certain positions. Or at least, the lack of quality strokes, even on clears. The feeling he could read my strokes from the back was also unnerving. Will incorporating more random feeds in my training help to improve my shots in suboptimal positions?

    I don't even know how to begin with trying to get my finger technique improved. I'm thinking to keep really loose and make grip tightening more pronounced?
     
  19. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    I can do a backhand flick serve for singles, but I will not do a backhand high serve in singles as I feel a forehand deep high serve is more effective. That said, I felt that the deep high serve was more effective against this opponent. Unfortunately he starting using it against me and apparently I'm weaker at responding to these too! I am unused to returning deep high serves, and it's something I really need to work on.

    Smash definitely wasn't the right decision - even if I hit it on the tramline, I would have struggled to take a straight block, let alone crosscourt. I think my momentum was in the wrong place, so I should have played a slower paced stroke.

    I'm always appreciative of comments, so thanks for your thoughts @rbynck and @Cheung!
     
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  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    A) Watch at about 2.00. This type of drill is hard. High intensity anaerobic work and keeping control of your body balance.



    B) We do this exercise a lot. This is one of the better videos from this YouTuber. The girl is feeding pretty well.



    C) this is a good one.



    D) go to 1.00. Explosive first step after split step. (don't worry about his forehand lunge foot position.)

    https://youtu.be/mdn-GmDc4bg


    ..) nice one here for smash defence.








    There's another one with young Anders Antonsen which I can't find at the moment.

    (will add other videos to this post when I find them)
     
    #160 Cheung, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017

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