I love badminton, and when at the club I consider people I play with as friends, so I'd like to find ways to clear away a few things which I suspect to be unhonourful as to keep it as enjoyable as possible. I therefore come here to ask a few questions to clear some doubts I have according to rules of the game, but also for practical advice. 1st Topic I played a competition on Sunday. I have very sweaty hands (especially when I'm stressed, as in the context of a competition for instance, which is a physiological reaction related to the normal functioning of the human autonomous nervous system) so my racket handle gets very slippery (even though I use towel grip). For that reason I use grip powder (magnesium carbonate), which absorbs the sweat and make the racket handle less slippery. I keep a Yonex plastic grip powder recipient (next to a tube of shuttles) on my side, right outside the doubles line and put it back on my hand about 2-3x per set on average (it takes maybe 5-15 seconds since am used to do it, don't take time to close the cap and do so in a rush when within a set). One of my opponents on Sunday said I was not allowed to do this (i.e. put powder on my hand during a set). Because I had seen this already on a tournament video I said I thought it was allowed but that we could go ask the organiser. The opponent didn't want to go ask this time, and also not the following time I offered before powdering my hands again that set. This was the second set and I ended up winning it so we never asked and now I am left uncertain about the official stance on this. Am I allowed to put grip powder on my hands only before a set or am I allowed to powder my hand during a set if I make a sign to the opponent indicating I will do so? And can I do it even if my opponent doesn't want me to put grip powder on my hand or do I need my opponent's agreement? What is the best way to react in this situation and how should I do if my opponent has the legal right to oppose me using grip powder during a set?
If you mean the doubles service line: This would not be allowed at any tournament I am aware of – even at a privately organized low-level tournament I would interfere if I saw this. All of the player's equipment belongs into the player boxes, which are right by the umpire chair. If there are no boxes for the players, all of the equipment should go close to the umpire chair (near the netposts). Wherever feasible, equipment must be at least 30cm from the sidelines of the court; farther as the tournament standard progresses. Now, onto the meat of the question: Are players allowed to stop playing for 5-15s to powder the grip? The rules are very sparse on the topic: So first of all, you have the full right to use the interval at 11 (60 seconds) however you please. I see many players at lower levels, especially youth players, not using it. Especially if you're behind or feel you have less stamina than your opponent, this is the time to recover, make plans, and prepare, including grip powdering. During the match, as rule §16.1 says, you're not supposed to stop playing. In practice, it's a little bit more nuanced. The umpire may grant the players additional rest. Whether they do that depends on a lot of circumstances: Is the court being mopped anyways? As long as the players are back on court once mopping is done, they can have a towel-down and quick drink. (compare ITTO §5.10.4) Is the pause significantly longer than the rhythm? If it takes 15s from shuttle on the floor to next service anyways, if you quickly apply some grip powder within 5s while your opponent is talking to their coaches, it's probably fine. Is one player being disadvantaged? If one player consistently takes longer, that's a problem. Better not be you. Without an umpire, the players decide jointly. So if your opponent agrees, you can certainly apply some grip powder. If they disagree, it's unclear. As usual, if there is any disagreement at all, you really need an umpire to decide those things. So the answer to the question Am I allowed to apply grip powder outside of the intervals? depends a lot on the circumstances. Once per game and 5s is not a problem. 3 times per game and 15s (or more like 20s, including going to your equipment and coming back) may be.
Thanks for this very detailed and well referenced approach to the topic. As to the location of the powder bottle I circled it in red on this picture, behind the box (you can also see my glass water bottle and shuttle tube). I watched a video of a match and from the time I touch the powder bottle to the time I am back into place to be served on there is exactly 8 seconds. I didn't know of the pause at 11 points. As I wrote, I do this 2-3x per set on average, so this would cut away 33-50% if the issue. If I'm sufficiently relaxed and the points don't last forever, powdering my hands every 11 points could almost cut it, but I sometimes need to powder more often, and when I need to I really need to (otherwise I cannot smash correctly, or get erratic shots, or could maybe even lose the racket as I often hold it from the very end, though this hasn't yet happened to me). Would it not be unfair if I was forced to play with a slippery grip? Should I post a video here for you guys to better ascertain if this really delays the game much?
They are sufficiently far away from your court, but very close to the neighboring court. So I'd put everything close to the netposts, but as long as nobody is playing on the other court, I guess it's fine. Both as a tournament organizer or umpire, I'd certainly object though, and have you put everything close to the netposts. Excellent. Great to hear that simply playing by the rules solves your problem . You may want to review them in case there is something else missing. No. Sweat is part of the game. But yes, it is certainly reasonable to powder once per game, maybe even twice, if it's only 8 seconds. But maybe there is a simpler solution: Why not bring multiple identical rackets? Then you can simply swap out whenever you feel it. Swapping out should be much, much faster. In the intervals (60s at 11, 120s between games), you can powder them all as you like.
Phihag, you have great and valuable knowledge of the rules but reading several of your comments I think maybe you could improve to an even higher level by playing more often badminton, which may allow you to get more insight of the playing conditions from a player's point of view. For the case of grip and powder: You are right in terms of rules, it would be a great idea to just swap rackets, in theory. In practice however, swapping towel-gripped rackets doesn't favourably replace proper powdering. A towel grip has to be played with and sweated on for a few points at least before it starts gripping well. Putting powder directly on a grip without sweat will prevent the sweat from correctly enabling it's peak gripping properties and powdering directly on the grip vs the sweaty hands will make the grip last less than half as long as it would normally (and as you know towel grips already have a very short lifespan). With respect to the rules: I am allowed to swap rackets, which will take me at least 5 seconds if not as much as I take to re-powder, but not to re-powder my hands? If it takes me only 8 seconds, am I allowed to re-powder within a set, outside of the interval at 11 points, even if my opponent objects to it?
No. Powdering and swapping rackets between rallies alike requires permission from the umpire (§16.5.2 of the laws). But swapping can be a lot faster.
I'm sure he knows. Whenever he has some time and he's not sick, he's on court. He's one of the most badminton enthusiastic people I know and that includes training and playing himself. You could just ask your opponent if it's ok if you do this quickly, if you don't take too much time too often, I don't know anybody who would not agree. You could still say that they probably wouldn't want your racket to be flying their way when you lose the grip. I do see switching rackets as an option and I think your reasons not to do it are excuses. You could either use both rackets for warm up, so there'll be some sweat or you could apply some water in advance. Overall, I get the feeling, that you take a long time between rallies a most of the time. It might not feel like that to yourself though.
I like facts rather than feelings: How many seconds is a "long time" to you? With that answer I can factually assess whether or not I'm doing right just by looking at the seconds on a video (which rules out everyone's feelings). What is the highest acceptable delay in your opinion, in that of any member of the forum, and with regards to rules between the moment a fault is committed and the moment the shuttle is hit again during service (expressed in seconds)?
Fact is, no, you're not allowed to do it, like phihag pointed out. You started making assumptions when you said phihag should play more. To me, ten seconds is a lot. From the end of the rally to the start of the new one. That's plenty of time to pick up the shuttle, get ready, and execute the service. Still, I think the average should be shorter than 10 seconds. 7 seconds might be realistic. That's my subjective opinion, not a rule. Not a guideline. I'm sure others can help with official guidelines.
I asked "what is the highest acceptable delay in your opinion" Is your final answer that the highest acceptable delay between the moment a fault is made and the moment the shuttle is hit again during service, according to your opinion, is 10 seconds?
You also asked And this, I answered. That's why I quoted it. This question is not precise enough to answer. As a guideline for every really? After someone dived and the floor has to be dried? After someone might have been injured and had to see if he can keep paying? When the lights stopped working? When the ventilation was switched back on and it's boring from one end of the court? All these things have happened to me, so don't say that I shouldn't take these into account. Holy .... let's say moly. I don't need to give a final answer! This is a discussion forum, you asked for my opinion, I answered the question I could answer, because the other one was not precise enough. My opinion is subject to change when someone convinces me. I don't have to be right all the time. On the other hand, you ignored all the other things I've said. Why is that? I still assume that you take a lot of time between rallies from your opponent's perspective. Is that correct or am I wrong? My view doesn't matter for your problem. By the way, your question has been answered. You're not allowed to do it. You keep trolling about other things now. Suggestions have been made on how to deal with that situation. Good luck with that and I hope you can enjoy your future matches.
I further defined the question you quoted right after it in my comment, but I recognize that this can be seen as two different questions. Your initial statement was: "Overall, I get the feeling, that you take a long time between rallies a most of the time." You now added "from your opponent's perspective". You ask if it is correct (as I have two versions of the questions I will answer both): In factual terms, over an entire game I most likely take 5-7 seconds on average between rallies (with peaks at maybe 12 seconds max 3 times per set). Now I leave that to your appreciation, according to me this is not a long time. In terms or my opponent's perspective: A lot of things happens in my opponent's head that are untold. It has never been explicitly voiced to me that I was taking too much time. That being said, many things have happened indicating that they were entertaining this thought in their head: (1) I have been told by my opponent last sunday I was not allowed to repowder my hand during a set, (2) One specific player at my club continuously acts annoyed when I put the feathers on the shuttle back into place, which I find to be an unhonourful behaviour from this player which I am otherwise quite friends with. That being said, I also frequently see an opponent act out in radically more inappropriate manner when playing against me or other players, such as throwing their racket on the floor after loosing a match, shouting out or leaving without saying goodbye. So I comparatively give very little attention to the aforementioned cues regarding my delay. When a person's ego is under pressure (as in the context of a match) the mind is naturally undergoing a process called "blame-shifting" whereby we try to amplify external cues to explain our defeat / poor performance and thus protect our ego.
sounds like you need to find a different club!! I am not sure how widespread toxic behaviors like this is at your regular club. Certainly from the description, people are not having fun. Once in a while a change of environment can be good for mental health and maybe just keeping the mind fresh with different faces. To ask a honest question: are you enjoying your badminton at your current club?
Try to see things the other way around, from your opponent's point of view. The opponent cannot know what's in your mind either and he might think you use powdering as an excuse to catch up your breath or break the rhythm (16.4.1) and I would say it is not his problem if you sweat too much actually. Your opponent might have his own problems too but don't stop the game. The rule is clear and basically you have 60 seconds at the 11 point mark and I would be a tad annoyed if you powder 3 times per set, then brush the shuttle between each rallies (another thread you posted), then challenge a few faults per set (another thread you posted) and may be more who knows. That's not what I would call a continuous play. (16.1) By judging your posts though I believe you have no bad intentions, I'm just trying to put things in perspective here because most rules are rather subject to interpretation especially: 4.2.2 Conducting themselves in an honourable and sportsmanlike manner during any match or at any time while within the precincts of the site of a BWF Sanctioned Tournament. 16.1 Play shall be continuous from the first service until the match is concluded, except for [intervals] 16.4.1 Under no circumstances shall play be delayed to enable a player to recover strength or wind or to receive advice.
That's an odd thing to say... besides rules are rules and if we start to consider each player's point of view (that can vary a lot) there is no end in sight and it's up to us, players, to know and respect the rules.
Haha! : ) If that's the only elements you look at I can understand that it gives a bad image of the club. But all of these things happened during the course of many months and if you dilute it in the many jokes, smiles, laugher and nice discussions of those many months, it's actually still a nice club. That being said I have also played in France and I would say that there is a lot of social pressure in the country of my club that is apparent on people at the club and more especially so at competitions, which I didn't see in France (though I saw a guy where I played in France, of a much better level than mine, come to trainings and just leave or refuse to play after a bad match). My biggest complaints about the club / badminton play here would be in the following order: 1st: In my club things are organized in a way that you very rarely if ever play against a player far above your level, which I think is very detrimental for improvement. In France it was normal to play: ~ 12-25% of your time vs Much Higher Level players ~ 50-75% of your time vs Close to your Level ~ 12-25% of your time vs Much Lower Level Players ... and in France, the growth level was higher (the champion of the country was in a club nearby, and the region in general had a lot of good players). 2nd: Things are planned for 2 hours play at the time and that is barely pass the time it requires me to start playing well. When I do sport I do 6 hour sessions so this means I have to plan games outside right before or after the club to have those 6 hour badminton sessions. In this I do recognize that I am more of an outlier in badminton, but in France 4 hour club sessions were standard, which is more acceptable already, and more efficient. 3rd: Some players don't put in their fair monetary amount of shuttle into the game at all and/or play with bad quality or overly degraded shuttles and so those who want to push the game upwards have to bear the costs. I think the top players at my club have less of a problem with that, but unfortunately I rarely play with them. 4th: Some players are very honest and honourful with respect to faults and playing conditions, but some (temporarily?) behave at stressful times with much less honour, especially from other clubs or during competitions. I have a hard time with that as it affects me emotionally and my emotions radically affect my game (I guess it's an opportunity for internal growth). One yet unmentioned but frequent example is players refusing to warm up before playing a competition game. It happens only part of the time but it enrages me (especially at the beginning when I knew no one, since I can now a bit more easily find a tiny spot to warm up before for a few minutes with a person I know). But there's lots of good things as well that I do not mention. Tomorrow for instance I'll play with a guy I met about a month ago: He plays above my level, he is the most honest badminton player I've played with with respect to in/outs, faults and lets, and he is just insane and incredibly generous about shuttles (he plays with high end shuttles and put in about one and a half tube of them in a single 5 hour session first time I met him, which made me feel super guilty as I was waiting for the delivery of a big shuttle order and couldn't contribute my share)
I do repowder 2-3x per set and brush the feathers back before service, but I never said I challenged several faults per set. In the post you are referring to I said that I once challenged 2 faults in 1 entire game with a player being grossly dishonest on that occasion, and 1 time in an entire game out of 6 faults that game in a competition match with the most dishonest player I've played with with respect to net faults. In average (except for in/outs) I would say that I call out an uncalled fault once every 2-4 games max in the context of trainings (it's a lot compared to other players, but I know 2 knowledgeable persons who call out faults I didn't call out or I didn't even know exist, so there's more obsessed than me as well), and maybe 1 uncalled fault every 2 games max in the context of competing (the difference is partly due to how much attention I pay, and how much I care, but also to more frequent faults during competitions, which is mostly attributable to stress/pressure of the players I'd think).
I said that with respect to 2 things: 1) The comment about swaping rackets vs repowdering which I think are not equivalent solutions when using towel grip (which Phihag may not use, as many high level players themselves play with non-towel grip) 2) The comment that implied that being vulnerable to violations of the rule prohibiting net faults meant bad technique while the rule exists for a reason and those faults are on shots made also by the highest level players in the world. That being said my comment refers to a detail about Phihag who overall provided extremely well informed answers to my posts which I am grateful for, which I think (/hope) I made clear in those posts.
Admin: I read this thread with substantial interest, and it looks like the two BFFs have now found each other. I cannot thank the internet enough for making this happen. Please close this thread. Good luck to us all.
