Top two single badminton players vs top double players
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phihag
Regular Member
We don't see the very very top players playing other disciplines, but world ranking 10+ players often play in leagues, where in a typical league match you'd play 2xMD+1xWD+2xMS+1xWS+1XD. In this situation is quite common for teams to field 4 men, with 2 doubles specialists playing MD and XD, and the singles players playing MD and MS.
In these situations, you see that success in a second or third discipline depends on multiple factors:
So how would the very top singles players fare in doubles? Likely, relatively to their singles skill even worse than the top national players, because they do not have the experience of playing doubles in leagues, and their training is highly focused. To be the very best of the world, you have to max out in all aspects. Singles players have spent thousands of hours with stamina training while the doubles players worked on their reaction and racket speed.
In these situations, you see that success in a second or third discipline depends on multiple factors:
- The disciplines: Strong MD/WD players tend to be very strong in XD. MS experts can often play a decent XD, like Hans-Kristian Vittinghus. MS and WS players play doubles both in training (often as a warm-up game) and in leagues, so their doubles game is usually at least somewhat developed. Pure doubles players almost never play singles in training or leagues, and they tend to fare worst there.
- Strong fundamentals transfer: Although tactics and footwork differs, athletics and racket skills are basically the same. World-class players beat lower-level players no matter the discipline.
- The person: Some players are good in all three disciplines. For example, Max Weißkirchen won the Mixed doubles and second place in the MS in the 2015 European Junior Championships, and consistently ranks in good results in the German national championships in all three disciplines. Others play with the level of one to three leagues below their normal discipline in the others.
So how would the very top singles players fare in doubles? Likely, relatively to their singles skill even worse than the top national players, because they do not have the experience of playing doubles in leagues, and their training is highly focused. To be the very best of the world, you have to max out in all aspects. Singles players have spent thousands of hours with stamina training while the doubles players worked on their reaction and racket speed.
For us mere mortal, on some occasion when i play single (im double btw), i tend to waste point coz my body memory stroke for corner shot (back, front, mid) is on the last line but sadly its an out on single.
For my friend that is single oriented player, he seems to struggle on fast games & he is not used to play cooperation with partner. He tend to catch everything by himself forgoting that he had a partner to cover their back.
But idk if those issue exist on the realm of demi gods.
For my friend that is single oriented player, he seems to struggle on fast games & he is not used to play cooperation with partner. He tend to catch everything by himself forgoting that he had a partner to cover their back.
But idk if those issue exist on the realm of demi gods.
So, it sups up to stamina vs speed. Thanks!
Well, addition question could be to imagine that two top single players dedicate some time to train on double game... they might catch up pretty quickly I guess. Handling the racket is best already, when reactions catch up they might just be on top of them all in doubles.
DarkHiatus
Regular Member
The top of the top are exceedingly specialised. A top MS player 'eventually' reaching the speed of a top MD player (technique/reflex (e.g. forehand defence with backhand)/strategy) is as likely as a top MD player to gain the stamina/technique/reflex (e.g. dive defence)/strategy of an MS player. That also assumes the psychological aspect of being able to play with with a MD partner for the MS player effectively, and for the MD player, to play an all-round game instead of perhaps relying on their partner for net/rearcourt strength.
Neither discipline is 'easier' than the other. They are different styles, just as sabre, foil, and épée are different styles of fencing! That is actually a bit of a change from history - MD used to be the 'failures' of MS training, but now MD is recognised as much as MS is. Only a matter of time before WS/WD get the recognition they deserve too!
What do you mean? Don't WS and WD pro players get to attend all the same big tournaments as the men?
DarkHiatus
Regular Member
They do, and they also get the same prizes. The BWF has done well in this regard. I also like how BadmintonEngland leave MD last in the All England - means people actually watch WD/WS and get to see how skilled the players really are.
That hasn't yet stopped most people I encounter in club settings (UK) mentioning how boring WS/WD are compared to MS/MD or how it's all about the man in XD. I think the few people who appear to give praise to WS are Indians I meet, taking great pride in the accomplishments of PVS (even amongst women!)
It's not the first time i've heard discussions about how males in clubs could possibly/probably beat international WS players just by smashing, or give them a good run anyway.
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Well recreational club players can be ignorant at times especially when they don't understand the level of performance required to play at the top level regardless of the disipline.
I think overall badminton at club/recreational level is one of the most inclusive sports regardless of gender or age, or even skill level for that matter. With clubs you usually see a good mix of ages and balance of genders.
Ouchie
Regular Member
Agreed.
Without mentioning names...I used to play in a local league where a former England WS player was allowed to play in the MD division 1 (the WD league was too weak for her). She ran circles around most of the men and even the county 1st team men struggled. They would not win by smashing
Azmi Yusof
Regular Member
In this video, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan vs Fung Hai Feng and Cai Yun. Basically the top 2 singles player vs the number 1 Men's double at the time. Although it is a friendly game for exhibition.
In my opinion, although they were just playing most of the time, there were instances/rallies where their competitive side flared up. During those time, you could see LCW and Lin Dan could have won the 1st set as they have no problem dealing with FHF and Caiyun speed, smash or drive. (these 2 just don't like losing
) . Again, just my opinion and analysis of the game.DarkHiatus
Regular Member
In this video, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan vs Fung Hai Feng and Cai Yun. Basically the top 2 singles player vs the number 1 Men's double at the time. Although it is a friendly game for exhibition.
In my opinion, although they were just playing most of the time, there were instances/rallies where their competitive side flared up. During those time, you could see LCW and Lin Dan could have won the 1st set as they have no problem dealing with FHF and Caiyun speed, smash or drive. (these 2 just don't like losing
Only looking at the first set (first 2 mins), since FHF/CY played as a pair. You have half the reasoning of LD/LCW messing around/playing half seriously.
However, FHF/CY aren't playing seriously at any point in the first 2 minutes...they're playing high lifts and relatively predictable strokes. Even if LCW/LD are returning the first drop/smash back, FHF/CY are not seriously following up the return - they are lifting, clearing, and generally slowing down the rallies all the time. Just compare that footage against FHF/CY in competitive MD play...the pace is just faster!
Based on the footage, I really can't see LD/LCW taking a set off FHF/CY playing seriously. Then again, they really shouldn't since LD/LCW don't train MD after all
As revered as LD/LCW are as prodigies, there still needs an appreciation of them taken in context of MD. As an example, FHF is known to be one of the hardest smashers in match play in badminton history - it is not like he is NOT particularly talented either!
Azmi Yusof
Regular Member
Only looking at the first set (first 2 mins), since FHF/CY played as a pair. You have half the reasoning of LD/LCW messing around/playing half seriously.
However, FHF/CY aren't playing seriously at any point in the first 2 minutes...they're playing high lifts and relatively predictable strokes. Even if LCW/LD are returning the first drop/smash back, FHF/CY are not seriously following up the return - they are lifting, clearing, and generally slowing down the rallies all the time. Just compare that footage against FHF/CY in competitive MD play...the pace is just faster!
Based on the footage, I really can't see LD/LCW taking a set off FHF/CY playing seriously. Then again, they really shouldn't since LD/LCW don't train MD after all
As revered as LD/LCW are as prodigies, there still needs an appreciation of them taken in context of MD. As an example, FHF is known to be one of the hardest smashers in match play in badminton history - it is not like he is NOT particularly talented either!
Wrong video, this is the full version. You can see the competitive side flared up here and there.
Regardless, I guess your point still counts especially after the interval on the first set when FHF & Cai Yun up the pace.
Still, LCW and Lin Dan are not half bad considering they don't play doubles together and playing against a pair who's not only number one, but have good chemistry together.
I still say that they had no issue dealing with FHF smash from rear to mid court though. Considering singles players tend to be better at all around defense, this makes sense.
DarkHiatus
Regular Member
Good video - entertaining to watch! I looked at the conversion rate of FHFs full power smashes into won points. Counted 9 instances of full power smash*: 7 points won, one lost point was a missed kill by CY (16:05) and the other was a missed tumbling net by CY (20:20).
Most of the time, it's not really about whether the smash is an outright winner. It's about setting up for the kill, and the stats above show how deadly an attacking combo FHF/CY were when they wanted to be.
It's one thing to get the shuttle back over the net and another to have a counterattacking defence. Koreans are amazing to watch in that regard...
*(6:15, 8:40, 11:05, 13:05, 14:30, 15:20, 16:05, 18:00, 20:20)
Super85
Regular Member
I think there’s exists only one player in badminton history that has WC medals in every category...a Swedish of course!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kihlström