Mohd Ahsan / Hendra Setiawan

[j4ckie]

I think for now they are about the same level or FHF may have a slight edge, however, if Hendra win the OG next year, I think it can be agreed on that Hendra is the GOAT

It will still be a matter of subjective judgement. What do you consider more important? Consistency? Sustained success? Span of time between your first and last won title? Do you count all medals, or just wins? How much more important do you think the majors are?
In the end, personal bias and preference will be the main deciding factors, imop. Even if you make a great effort to ignore it, you will never be able to do so completely, and simply applying a formula (which would already contain some of your personal, hence possibly biased preferences) would ignore other context (for example the fact that HS only won one major title with Lee/Jung active, whereas Cai/Fu won 3, or that HS enjoyed sustained success with two partners, whereas Fu only won few titles with Zhang...and that's just scratching the surface).
Overall, unless HS wins something like another OG and WC Gold and 2 more AEs, I wouldn't ever say that there's a clear better player. Not to mention we haven't even gone back to the times before these two players in the argument (concerning GOAT status), because there's very solid arguments to be made for PJB as well, for example.

 

[konak]

dont forget that Hendra didnt play in the 2012 OG, if he had, the results may have been different, considering he defeated FHF in 2008.

Weird reasoning, might just as well say that Fu could've won the 2008 final considering he had beaten Hendra before. Especially weird since HS couldn't even qualify for the tournament you're suggesting he might have won...

Actually, they were ranked fifth in the world a month before olympic began, but Kido chose not to enter several olympic qualification tournaments before because he wanted to accompany his wife who was about to give birth (WHAT A NOBLE HUSBAND !! )
so they just ranked 12 in qualification period.

here's the excerp from the old news
https://www.republika.co.id/berita/...arkis-kido-hendra-setiawan-naik-peringkat-bwf

...
Sayangnya, meski Markis Kido/ Hendra Setiawan berhasil memperbaiki peringkatnya, tapi ganda putra Indonesia ini tidak ikut serta pada Olimpiade London 2012. Alhasil, mereka tidak bisa mempertahankan medali emas untuk nomor ganda putra yang direbut empat tahun lalu di Beijing.

Pasangan Markis Kido/Hendra Setiawan tidak ikut serta ke Olimpiade London 2012 karena Kido memutuskan tidak ikut karena fokus untuk menjaga istrinya yang akan melahirkan pada pentas olahraga akbar empat tahunan tersebut.

 

[Matthew Evan]

It will still be a matter of subjective judgement. What do you consider more important? Consistency? Sustained success? Span of time between your first and last won title? Do you count all medals, or just wins? How much more important do you think the majors are?
In the end, personal bias and preference will be the main deciding factors, imop. Even if you make a great effort to ignore it, you will never be able to do so completely, and simply applying a formula (which would already contain some of your personal, hence possibly biased preferences) would ignore other context (for example the fact that HS only won one major title with Lee/Jung active, whereas Cai/Fu won 3, or that HS enjoyed sustained success with two partners, whereas Fu only won few titles with Zhang...and that's just scratching the surface).
Overall, unless HS wins something like another OG and WC Gold and 2 more AEs, I wouldn't ever say that there's a clear better player. Not to mention we haven't even gone back to the times before these two players in the argument (concerning GOAT status), because there's very solid arguments to be made for PJB as well, for example.

I'm agree with you.both of them (FHF and HS) is undisputed players to be considered as the best MD players ever
Sadly, HS had some "time wasting" period during the 2011-2012 and post rio-end of 2017

 

[j4ckie]

Actually, they were ranked fifth in the world a month before olympic began, but Kido chose not to enter several olympic qualification tournaments before because he wanted to accompany his wife who was about to give birth (WHAT A NOBLE HUSBAND !! )
so they just ranked 12 in qualification period.

here's the excerp from the old news
https://www.republika.co.id/berita/...arkis-kido-hendra-setiawan-naik-peringkat-bwf

...
Sayangnya, meski Markis Kido/ Hendra Setiawan berhasil memperbaiki peringkatnya, tapi ganda putra Indonesia ini tidak ikut serta pada Olimpiade London 2012. Alhasil, mereka tidak bisa mempertahankan medali emas untuk nomor ganda putra yang direbut empat tahun lalu di Beijing.

Pasangan Markis Kido/Hendra Setiawan tidak ikut serta ke Olimpiade London 2012 karena Kido memutuskan tidak ikut karena fokus untuk menjaga istrinya yang akan melahirkan pada pentas olahraga akbar empat tahunan tersebut.

You're suggesting they would've been able to perform well in those tournaments. Not unreasonable, but purely hypothetical. We're not talking about alternate realities or fantasies, but judging players' accomplishments. If you start altering facts and considering possibilities, you might as well argue for Koo/Tan to be the GOAT because what if Koo was just more disciplined and had kept it together after their initial success...

Side point: your opinion (or anyone's) of Markis' motives for not playing those tournaments is also irrelevant in the context of discussing career achievements.

 

[ericksakti]

Though there is another point : Fu had always succeeded in most all his Olympics campaign to the 3 finals. While Hendra failed once.

Yes, and the only time they failed is because he faced Hendra in the final

 

[ericksakti]

It will still be a matter of subjective judgement. What do you consider more important? Consistency? Sustained success? Span of time between your first and last won title? Do you count all medals, or just wins? How much more important do you think the majors are?
In the end, personal bias and preference will be the main deciding factors, imop. Even if you make a great effort to ignore it, you will never be able to do so completely, and simply applying a formula (which would already contain some of your personal, hence possibly biased preferences) would ignore other context (for example the fact that HS only won one major title with Lee/Jung active, whereas Cai/Fu won 3, or that HS enjoyed sustained success with two partners, whereas Fu only won few titles with Zhang...and that's just scratching the surface).
Overall, unless HS wins something like another OG and WC Gold and 2 more AEs, I wouldn't ever say that there's a clear better player. Not to mention we haven't even gone back to the times before these two players in the argument (concerning GOAT status), because there's very solid arguments to be made for PJB as well, for example.

Yes I do agree that it is a subjective topic, but in general Im sure if Hendra win another OG more people will rate him higher than FHF, that Im sure of. Im sure there are also people that will rate FHF higher still than Hendra, but Im just saying that the number of people putting Hendra above FHF will be more (if he win the 2020 OG of course)

 

[Matthew Evan]

You're suggesting they would've been able to perform well in those tournaments. Not unreasonable, but purely hypothetical. We're not talking about alternate realities or fantasies, but judging players' accomplishments. If you start altering facts and considering possibilities, you might as well argue for Koo/Tan to be the GOAT because what if Koo was just more disciplined and had kept it together after their initial success...

Kido's reason is something more personal i think (if you compared with undisciplined koo/tan).i think he only mention that if atleast HS/kido play in London, they surely a serious title contender but thats not guarantee they will automatically win it

 

[ericksakti]

Kido's reason is something more personal i think (if you compared with undisciplined koo/tan).i think he only mention that if atleast HS/kido play in London, they surely a serious title contender but thats not guarantee they will automatically win it

Yes, and I believe its not unreasonable to say that they are a serious title contender, considering they were the defending champion.

 

[konak]

You're suggesting they would've been able to perform well in those tournaments. Not unreasonable, but purely hypothetical. We're not talking about alternate realities or fantasies, but judging players' accomplishments. If you start altering facts and considering possibilities, you might as well argue for Koo/Tan to be the GOAT because what if Koo was just more disciplined and had kept it together after their initial success...

Side point: your opinion (or anyone's) of Markis' motives for not playing those tournaments is also irrelevant in the context of discussing career achievements.

I'm not talking about alternate realities. I'm giving you the fact that Setiawan partner was a good husband but a bad athlete.
When he got a good partner (Ahsan) he terminated the pairing of Fu haifeng/Cai Yun.

 

[j4ckie]

I'm not talking about alternate realities. I'm giving you the fact that Setiawan partner was a good husband but a bad athlete.
When he got a good partner (Ahsan) he terminated the pairing of Fu haifeng/Cai Yun.

Or maybe Cai Yun finally retired after winning the OG gold after he had already thought about retiring in 2008.....? He did the whole Chinese thing, pairing up with less experienced players for a while, but he and Fu didn't compete in any serious capacity with the exception of the 2013 WC...
'Terminated' is definitely the wrong phrasing especially since Cai/Fu didn't really play Hendra/Ahsan a lot.
Also,you can spin the tale the other way around - Cai/Fu 'terminated' Kido/Setiawan in 2010. Just as unreasonable a concept.

Also, what's your point in bringing up the extracurricular reasons for them not qualifying for London if you don't mean to insinuate they could have done it had they tried their best...?

 

[ericksakti]

You're suggesting they would've been able to perform well in those tournaments. Not unreasonable, but purely hypothetical. We're not talking about alternate realities or fantasies, but judging players' accomplishments. If you start altering facts and considering possibilities, you might as well argue for Koo/Tan to be the GOAT because what if Koo was just more disciplined and had kept it together after their initial success...

Side point: your opinion (or anyone's) of Markis' motives for not playing those tournaments is also irrelevant in the context of discussing career achievements.

I think you misunderstood him, what he was saying is that Hendra actually qualified for the tournament, but they didnt enter because Kido got personal issue, not that they didn't qualify for OG like what you said (they did qualify but Kido chose not to enter).

 

[konak]

Or maybe Cai Yun finally retired after winning the OG gold after he had already thought about retiring in 2008.....? He did the whole Chinese thing, pairing up with less experienced players for a while, but he and Fu didn't compete in any serious capacity with the exception of the 2013 WC...
'Terminated' is definitely the wrong phrasing especially since Cai/Fu didn't really play Hendra/Ahsan a lot.
Also,you can spin the tale the other way around - Cai/Fu 'terminated' Kido/Setiawan in 2010. Just as unreasonable a concept.

Also, what's your point in bringing up the extracurricular reasons for them not qualifying for London if you don't mean to insinuate they could have done it had they tried their best...?

in asian games 2010, Kido/Setiawan beat LYD/JJS in SF who beat Cai Yun/Fu Haifeng a day before in QF.. And all it Happened in Guangzhou., CHINA.

I bringing up "the husband thing" of kido to give you the context of Hendra setiawan slump post olympic 2008. One of the reason is an "abusive partner".

 

[konak]

I think you misunderstood him, what he was saying is that Hendra actually qualified for the tournament, but they didnt enter because Kido got personal issue, not that they didn't qualify for OG like what you said (they did qualify but Kido chose not to enter).

No. Actually Setiawan didn't qualify.
The reason was they not participate in several qualification tournament. so when the calculation period stop they are outside top 8.

You have to feel for Hendra, because he felt compelled to follow kido out of national training camp because he was worried, if he starting with a new partner, he will start all over again. While with Kido he has been paired since his junior days at the club.

 

[tepokbulu]

caifu terminated semar who terminated leejung who terminated caifu
in asian games guangzhou 2010
caifu terminated themselves

 

[ericksakti]

No. Actually Setiawan didn't qualify.
The reason was they not participate in several qualification tournament. so when the calculation period stop they are outside top 8.

You have to feel for Hendra, because he felt compelled to follow kido out of national training camp because he was worried, if he starting with a new partner, he will start all over again. While with Kido he has been paired since his junior days at the club.

Oh I see, I feel really bad for Hendra, but at least its good to see him rising up again. He truly deserves to be WC again.

 

[j4ckie]

Yes I do agree that it is a subjective topic, but in general Im sure if Hendra win another OG more people will rate him higher than FHF, that Im sure of. Im sure there are also people that will rate FHF higher still than Hendra, but Im just saying that the number of people putting Hendra above FHF will be more (if he win the 2020 OG of course)

Why are you sure of that? He will/would have won the same number of Golds, a silver less, and the same number of WC Golds. Why do you think the majority wi rate him higher?

 

[ericksakti]

Why are you sure of that? He will/would have won the same number of Golds, a silver less, and the same number of WC Golds. Why do you think the majority wi rate him higher?

Well, lets say for example him winning AE and WC when he is already 35 years old, and especially when there is a really dominating pair at the same time like the minions, I think its considered a great achievement on its own.

So I would say IF they can win the OG next year, I'm sure it will be considered a great achievement, and Im really sure more people will rate him higher than FHF. To have a motivating drive to stay in the field for that long is not easy Im sure, especially after how he goes down after OG 2016.

And also, I personally think 2 AG gold is better than 1 olympic silver, but thats my subjective opinion.

 

[Yoji]

Heck even 1 AG Gold is better than 1OG silver.

One thing is HS has more titles than Fu. 2nd is he won all individual titles that can be won. Unfortunately for Fu, he has been missing AG or going Awol there. Just like Minions in WC. and i gotta feel sorry because 2010 is held in Guangzhou. One can say they failed in Beijing and Guangzhou. plus they cant win their home tournament for no matter how many times they compete it...

sometimes there are just titles you cant win no matter how hard you tried

 

[yuquall]

I don't know about a "devote husband", all I can see is that Kido was a selfish and inconsiderate partner. He made trouble in the camp and had coach Herry removed from their management team. And he had to drag Hendra along with his "campaign" and for stupid personal reasons. A good thing Hendra had the courage to return and asked for another chance.

 

[minions]

I don't know about a "devote husband", all I can see is that Kido was a selfish and inconsiderate partner. He made trouble in the camp and had coach Herry removed from their management team. And he had to drag Hendra along with his "campaign" and for stupid personal reasons. A good thing Hendra had the courage to return and asked for another chance.

Yeah, it took quite long for him to return. What's more impressed is that he never seem to blame Kido. He is a very supportive man.