Lee Zii Jia

Discussion in 'Malaysia Professional Players' started by undeadshot, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. justforfun

    justforfun Regular Member

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    Japan has already provided a pretty good blueprint for the rest of the world. Provide tax incentives for private companies to form and run clubs in the country that will nurture young talents, and have a lean national association and coaching team to pick/support the best players among these clubs to compete for the country. This way the clubs would actually be managed by capable personnel rather than people who know nothing about the sport (otherwise they cease to exist), and the players are free to leave to another club if they are not happy with their circumstances. These companies can also retrain the athletes after their retirement into taking up a job opportunity in the company, which then solves parent's worries about their children's livelihood in case they don't make it.
     
    #341 justforfun, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  2. YeoKC

    YeoKC New Member

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    Whatever model they choose...let's hope it works. No one should deprive the badminton world of sporting talent like LZJ.
     
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  3. Simeon

    Simeon Regular Member

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    LZJ Sponsor team pays to BAM?
    After that they can maintain peace, and even have visits at each other's training camp now and then.
     
  4. justiceforlcy

    justiceforlcy Regular Member

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    Okuhara went independent and Momota is technically on a "pro" contract with NTT East
     
  5. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    it's simple. let any athlete who qualifies for the draw via ranking enter on their own or through their federation. it shouldn't matter to bwf how you enter. it has zero effect on a tournament.
    in fact it's too easy. a stroke of a pen is all it takes. oh wait, you need competent executives in place to use that pen. my bad.
     
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  6. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    I think Japan’s system is good because it apparently works, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the best. It’s not driven by the market and I am not sure you can find companies in other countries to voluntarily sponsor a team of players. Plus the companies don’t come into the picture until after high school (or college?). While the central training starts at a younger age.

    I think ideal is either go by central training then allow “free agent” after certain condition is satisfied (sort of like pro soccer). Or go by clubs and national teams only exist temporarily for occasions (like US swimming) The issue is that badminton is not profitable enough, and demands too high level a training for option 2 to be prevalent. I still think option 1 is the best for countries like Malaysia.
     
  7. rhoder

    rhoder Regular Member

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    Then the balance of power might shift too much to the players. Imagine, from the perspective of an organisation, you invest lots of money to develop a star athlete. Then upon having the first taste of success, he unilaterally decided to go independent. How are you going to recoup the expenses incurred on that individual? Which organisation would then opt to invest in any individual with such a massive risk?

    The system might be adapted, but I think it still has to allow organisations to make a return, before any flexibility regarding independence can be given. Axelsen and LCW and LD all paid their dues before coming to the negotiating table, LZJ hasn’t, that’s why he had this treatment.
     
    #347 rhoder, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  8. justforfun

    justforfun Regular Member

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    Taiwan is also operating on a similar system where clubs are owned and sponsored by Land Banks/Cooperation Banks of Taiwan which are state backed. At the end of the day, BAM has been in operation for such a long period of time but had nothing to show for other than LCW, and in this period of time countries like Taiwan and Singapore which are lesser known for their badminton heritage have overtaken Malaysia in getting Olympic Gold Medal/World Champs. With the way things are going (players leaving or getting dissatisfied), they are only getting further and further away from the mission of their existence.
     
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  9. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    it's the current flawed system that creates the power conflict where one party (athletes) cannot function w/out the other (federations). as proven throughout history this is the wrong way to govern a sport.
    a federations role in badminton should be that of a 'team' or 'academy', run for profit. charge athletes to train, scout young players worldwide and give scholarships or grants to those you think have potential, sign free agent player contracts with the best pro's you can afford to whatever terms you agree on (length, salary, prize money split, expenses, schedule, whatever...). fund your federation however you can through your gov't, training fees, corporate sponsors (banks, finance, nike, yonex, whoever...). athletes are free to join any team in the world or seek their own path. see how simple that is?

    in the tournaments it's not mas v. chn, ind v. korea, jpn v. den, etc... lzj won the all england, not mas. axelsen won the og, not den. there are no team scores. the individuals win their events and the prize money is awarded to the athlete.

    right now the power federations have the advantage. they get to sit back and collect an allowance from their government for much to all of their expenses, and then point fingers when they don't get the results they want. they have no obligation to the financial standing of their org or the health and well being of the athletes. they do not have to know how to run a business. that is why they fail.

    badminton is an individual sport and a regulating body, bwf, must not have any say in how an athlete conducts their career or the federation/athlete relationship. it is a conflict of interest. the current bwf rule blatantly interferes and grants 100% of the power to the federations. why does bwf do this? they don't need to.
    none of those issues would exist if badminton was run properly as an individual sport.
     
    #349 samkool, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  10. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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  11. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    https://www.nst.com.my/sports/badminton/2022/01/765282/star-power-and-money

    Excerpts from the above article :

    And in the contracts, it is clearly stated that a player is not to withdraw from the National Training Centre without BAM's approval. It is also stated that if a player withdraws but intends to continue to participate in international competitions, BAM can take punitive actions against the said player as this may be deemed appropriate to protect BAM's interest.

    Now, what is BAM actually protecting? One may wonder.

    Last year, BAM signed a five-year sponsorship deal worth RM55 million with Yonex, and before that a six-year deal with Victor worth RM60 million.

    What has this got to do with Zii Jia anyway? The thing is these sponsors have certain requirements before jumping into multimillion commitments, and one of them is that the national team must have several top athletes carrying their sports equipment brands. Should these athletes leave prematurely, sponsors are at liberty to cut back on their deals.

    This would mean that funds to the states - to develop younger shuttlers and grassroots programmes - will have to be reduced as well. What about the day-to-day operations costs, coaches, support service staff and the monthly allowances of 60 other national players that BAM will have to pay?

    Here's another :

    If BAM do not nip this in the bud, it will set a precedent, and more young players will opt to leave the national set-up due to lucrative offers outside. What about BAM's investments then?

    BAM are a non profit organisation and if I could respond to social media comments, take note that BAM do not take a cut from players' prize money.
     
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  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Can private clubs take up the challenge without the infrastructure? Funding would be the primary concern.

    For a badminton program, how many 12-13 year olds do you need to train to make one junior international level player?


    Then, for a private club, what's to stop another club from poaching your junior players? A contract……
     
  13. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    ...and from the same article [https://www.nst.com.my/sports/badminton/2022/01/765282/star-power-and-money]:

    BWF, led by a Dane, Poul-Erik Høyer Larsen, have remained silent throughout the Zii Jia episode, and have not responded to several top players' call for the world body to amend their regulations...


    is anyone surprised? bwf execs should be embarrassed by how they govern the sport. if they aren't it proves how clueless they are. if they are it proves how spineless they are to change anything.

    Last year, BAM signed a five-year sponsorship deal worth RM55 million with Yonex... these sponsors have certain requirements before jumping into multimillion commitments, and one of them is that the national team must have several top athletes carrying their sports equipment brands. Should these athletes leave prematurely, sponsors are at liberty to cut back on their deals.

    that's $2,630,000 (usd)/year for yonex towards bam alone, and bam isn't the only federation they sponsor. if badminton were properly conducted yonex (and victor and li-ning, etc.) would merely operate their badminton budget the same way they do for tennis and golf: sign pro athletes, sign jr. athletes, sponsor or host tournaments, advertise in badminton academies, etc.
     
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  14. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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  15. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    So LZJ has been with BAM for 11 yrs. I wonder over all these years, what type of training arrangement he had with BAM, what does BAM provide, facility, coaching, physical therapy, injury doctor, stipend, etc. How much would that have costed him if he had paid all those on his own.

    If under samkool system, where he will from the age of 12, have been able to either pay for those and/or able to convince Yonex or other sponsor to assist. How likely is that going to be.

    And if not, would he even have achieve what he achieved today.
     
    #356 kwun, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  17. justforfun

    justforfun Regular Member

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    The operating cost and assets required to run BAM is well documented, this is the financial report for the year 2019: https://bam.org.my/sites/default/files/download-pdf/Audited Accounts 2019.pdf

    Initial investment may be large, but a yearly operating deficit of 300K/a couple of millions is really nothing for companies making billions. Sponsorship deals will go to clubs, and these clubs will likely be operating at a much leaner and efficient model than the BAM, so it is not unfair to assume they can reduce the deficit or even make a profit.

    Poaching players can only be good for the development? Competition is always welcomed. Players are going to sign their contracts with clubs, but at least clubs wouldn't have power to ban players from joining tournaments when negotiation falls apart. Compensation for leaving the club can then be paid with prize money or new sponsors as long as players can continue to join tournaments.

    Edit:
    Most importantly, players will no longer be susceptible to pressure from netizens as they are no longer funded by tax money, which I think is the biggest reason contributing to LZJ's departure (pressure). Besides, no regimented lifestyle where you have to stay in dormitory until you get married which is also one of the LZJ's complaint.
     
    #357 justforfun, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  18. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    If BWF rescind the association registration rule, then I can ask one of you guys to partner me in a world tour event @kwun
     
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    If the Malaysian government is happy to fund BAM and allow players to move without restriction, then it should come out and say so categorically. This would make things a lot clearer for BAM and players. We can have players traded on contracts - maybe not such a bad idea.

    BTW, criticism will come whether publicly funded or privately funded. People were pretty nasty to Goh Liu Ying recently. Pretty naive to argue there will be less pressure from keyboard warriors.
     
  20. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    I am in! Let's pick All England to be our debut tournament!
     
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