Kudos to the Korean

[HiddenPower]

I had enough of your "on the high horse" BS.

The BWF wants the player to give their "best efforts" to win. And that's what they did.

What I don't understand is, you seem to blame everything on the players. Those players did what they had to do and what's logical to do. If I have to give a number, I'd say 50% fault go to the players (and their coaches), and BWF is at least 50% to blame for this. Don't give me that why no one said anything to BWF before OLY question. Who are the players to question BWF's decision? Do they ever listen? The most one can do is adapting the new rule and live with it!

These players trained hard for 4 years, they don't deserve to get DQ because of some crappy bureaucratic rule. My hearts are with them.

And what the heck did BWF said for themselves in this? NOTHING!

Emotion? Try mere logic and calling BS when I see it.

Yet, they got DQ'd for breaking the rules (ie cheating).

From the BWF's website: "The pairs were charged under BWF’s Players’ Code of Conduct – Sections 4.5 and 4.16 respectively – with “not using one’s best efforts to win a match” and “conducting oneself in a manner that is clearly abusive or detrimental to the sport”."

There is no specific law about squirting someone with battery acid however if you do so you won't be charged with "squirting someone with battery acid" you'll be charged under the assault laws.

It's not about morality, it's about the simple application of the rules.

Not that easy actually, first I'd have to buy and install an AC unit. Though why one is a key ingredient for being an 'internet tough guy' escapes me.

As I've said numerous times and you've failed to address numerous times is that these ladies received clear warnings their actions would be considered a violation of the rules and that if they continued with those actions they would face the consequences. At that point there's no gray area.

You and others keep saying they have a job to do and that job is to win gold. What you haven't explained is how getting DQ'd works towards that goal?

Yes the system should get the blame however a faulty system doesn't absolve the players of all responsibility for their actions.

No dispute with this point but could someone provide a link to any kind of public statement by a coach or player warning about this?

 

[thunder.tw]

I had enough of your "on the high horse" BS.

Well then rather than making silly accusations about being on a high horse why don't you try responding to the points I've raised and the logic behind them?

The BWF wants the player to give their "best efforts" to win. And that's what they did.

No, you are grossly oversimplifying the issue in order make the context fit your distorted view point. The very fact that you would try to even imply that what went on was and example of the players best efforts clearly shows you have a very tenuous grasp on reality. Even conceding to your warping of the context you are leaving out the fact that the players violated the very clearly written players code of conduct.

What I don't understand is, you seem to blame everything on the players. Those players did what they had to do and what's logical to do.

Which just shows again that your grasp of the reality isn't as firm as it should be. I've been critical of the BWF and their lax and inconsistent applications of the rules on this forum for years. In fact on this issue I've stated directly that I think the BWF, the national associations and whole international badminton community at large have a share of the blame. As far as the players go, I have stated in this very thread that I was sickened by the way the national associations have thrown their players 'under the bus'. That said, I also believe that the players should be accountable for their own actions as well. I doubt very seriously that they protested their orders to throw the match.

If I have to give a number, I'd say 50% fault go to the players (and their coaches), and BWF is at least 50% to blame for this.

Sorry blame isn't a quantity. You can't 'half blame' someone. The players and the BWF are both at fault. The players choose to break the rules and they paid the consequences. There are deep structural and cultural issues within the international badminton community and its representative body (the BWF). I'm not happy with the fact that nothing appears to be happening to address these deeper issues but, that doesn't absolve the players of their actions.

Don't give me that why no one said anything to BWF before OLY question. Who are the players to question BWF's decision?

So? who said I was restricting my remarks to the players. What about the national associations which are supposed to look after their interests? Surely you aren't delusional enough to tell me that they are powerless in the face of the BWF?

Do they ever listen? The most one can do is adapting the new rule and live with it!

Well, considering they failed to adapt to the old rules I'm not sure 'adapting to the new rule' is in the cards.

These players trained hard for 4 years, they don't deserve to get DQ because of some crappy bureaucratic rule. My hearts are with them.

I can sympathize with them but, they were given a very clear warning that their actions were endangering all that hard work. Also, your view is very self centered they aren't the only ones who trained hard for the last for years. Many many players have dedicated decades of their lives to the game of badminton and that is something that certain teams seem to feel they are entitled to $hit all over.

And what the heck did BWF said for themselves in this? NOTHING!

I'm with you on this and I hope I see you posting your outrage here about the BWF the next time some lower ranked Chinese player is given a W.O. by Lin Dan in the semi-final or final of a SS event.

 

[craigandy]

Technically,that seems to be the case,except that who will pay for the coaches' services, the independent players themselves before their return to the National Team?

In effect the 4-year suspension for the coaches is tantamount to sacking,why would they want to wait 4 years to be re-employed by KBA? They are free to seek employment elsewhere,maybe other BAs are interested, BAM,PBSI? Appeared to me the coaches and players are punished for embarrassing Dr Kang and not delivering at the Olympics - more of a Korean domestic affair.

Surely the Chinese badminton association will have a place for the coaches, The coaches have a perfectly in keeping mindset to flourish in CBA.

 

[bakulaw]

As pointed out here, the question was whether the coaches would have been banned from their regular jobs where Sung was coaching Daekyo and Kim was coaching the Samsung Electromechanics pro team. This decision means they'll be limited to those roles for the next 4 years at least. As for the players, they too will be with their pro teams. The worst case is still for Kim Min Jung, as her team, Jeonbuk Bank, is the only one that has never gone overseas for a tournament independently of the national team. Samsung went to the Australian Open in 2010, Daekyo went to the Canadian Open in 2005, and KGC goes abroad every year to either the Singapore Int'l Series or the Indonesia Int'l Challenge.

OT: You seem to be quite familiar with the Korean domestic badminton scene. How do you follow local news?

 

[event]

can the four players still practice within the national team?

No. The language used is that their status as national team players is revoked for 1 year. That means that the government will not allow them on the grounds at the national training centre for that period. They will have to train with their pro teams. For most of them, the players who are usually there, and not training with the national team, are mostly singles specialists. However, Kim Ha Na will have Kim Min Seo to train with and Lee Hyo Jung as a trainer. Ha Jung Eun will have her former partner Park Sun Young to train with and Ra Kyung Min as a coach.

OT: You seem to be quite familiar with the Korean domestic badminton scene. How do you follow local news?

How? By spending too much time. Information like I gave above, though, is available from the BKA website. You can tell from the player lists for individual tournaments when KT&G or Daekyo or Samsung are the only ones sending players. You'd have to have looked at every list since 2005, however, to know that Kim Min Jung's team had never gone overseas and, sadly, I have.

I believe similar things happen with Japanese pro teams and with PB Djarum in Indonesia but I find it harder to track down that information.

 

[XtC-604]

I honestly believe that the banning/revoking of their national team statuses were a bit over the top. Getting DQ'ed from the OG was already a big enough punishment.

 

[HiddenPower]

Well then rather than making silly accusations about being on a high horse why don't you try responding to the points I've raised and the logic behind them?

No need to. Your minds are not going to change and so is mine. Let's just leave it here. As I said before, everyone can keep his own opinion.

No, you are grossly oversimplifying the issue in order make the context fit your distorted view point. The very fact that you would try to even imply that what went on was and example of the players best efforts clearly shows you have a very tenuous grasp on reality. Even conceding to your warping of the context you are leaving out the fact that the players violated the very clearly written players code of conduct.

I feel the same way about the first part of you. About the BWF rules, it's not black and white, and it has not been enforced like this before.

Which just shows again that your grasp of the reality isn't as firm as it should be. I've been critical of the BWF and their lax and inconsistent applications of the rules on this forum for years. In fact on this issue I've stated directly that I think the BWF, the national associations and whole international badminton community at large have a share of the blame. As far as the players go, I have stated in this very thread that I was sickened by the way the national associations have thrown their players 'under the bus'. That said, I also believe that the players should be accountable for their own actions as well. I doubt very seriously that they protested their orders to throw the match.

Hum, I must missed that part you wrote. It must buried somewhere between the blames.
After all, the players are the ones did all the hard work, get DQ and even being called cheaters by everyone doesn't know badminton and even some people here!

Nothing happens to BWF! Just Great!

Sorry blame isn't a quantity. You can't 'half blame' someone. The players and the BWF are both at fault. The players choose to break the rules and they paid the consequences. There are deep structural and cultural issues within the international badminton community and its representative body (the BWF). I'm not happy with the fact that nothing appears to be happening to address these deeper issues but, that doesn't absolve the players of their actions.

Unfair is the key here. The one did all the work took all the blame.
That's why we should show more compassion towards the players instead of calling them cheaters.

So? who said I was restricting my remarks to the players. What about the national associations which are supposed to look after their interests? Surely you aren't delusional enough to tell me that they are powerless in the face of the BWF?

Well, I can’t speak for every country. But the Chinese badminton Association (CBA) doesn’t really have much power in BWF.

I can sympathize with them but, they were given a very clear warning that their actions were endangering all that hard work. Also, your view is very self centered they aren't the only ones who trained hard for the last for years. Many many players have dedicated decades of their lives to the game of badminton and that is something that certain teams seem to feel they are entitled to $hit all over.

I'm with you on this and I hope I see you posting your outrage here about the BWF the next time some lower ranked Chinese player is given a W.O. by Lin Dan in the semi-final or final of a SS event.

Walkover happens all the time. It happened before and it will happen in the future. CHN is not the only countries do this.

http://article.wn.com/view/2012/05/25/Badminton_China_Coach_Lashes_Out_Over_Walkovers/

but when CHN give walk over, everyone jumps.

People hate domination – this is a fact.

 

[thunder.tw]

No need to. Your minds are not going to change and so is mine. Let's just leave it here. As I said before, everyone can keep his own opinion.

B.S. show me evidence or fact to back up your point and I will always reconsider my opinion. First though you need to recognize reality. Which, you are incapable of because it conflicts with your Jingoistic point of view.

I feel the same way about the first part of you. About the BWF rules, it's not black and white, and it has not been enforced like this before.

No the rules are not a grey area and the national teams know this which is why they haven't fought this. Anyone with the reading skills of a third grader can understand the rules and even if they didn't. They had some nice officials from the BWF come onto the court and explain it to them (this is the 4th time I've had to mention this to you). Yes the rules haven't been enforced in the past but this was a different venue and this time the outrage went beyond the badminton community so the BWF was forced to act.

Hum, I must missed that part you wrote. It must buried somewhere between the blames.

Nope, it was in it's own distinct post which couldn't have been hard to find as four members 'liked' it.

After all, the players are the ones did all the hard work, get DQ and even being called cheaters by everyone doesn't know badminton and even some people here!

So? what's your point? They were found to have violated the rules, they did so in a blatant and foolish manner and reaped their just reward.

Unfair is the key here. The one did all the work took all the blame.

Fairness is relative. Actually they were treated quite fairly. For the fifth time, I remind you, they were told by the on court officials that they were breaking the rules. They were DQ'd on court but had that DQ withdrawn on the promise that they would play a proper match. They foolishly chose to flush that second chance down the toilet.

That's why we should show more compassion towards the players instead of calling them cheaters.

Why are they deserving of any compassion? They were warned and didn't listen and paid the price. I think the DQ is enough and I think that the further penalties that are being imposed on players by their national associations are sickening.

Well, I can’t speak for every country. But the Chinese badminton Association (CBA) doesn’t really have much power in BWF.

Actually you can't speak for any country. The idea that the national associations have no influence on the BWF is pure fiction.

Walkover happens all the time. It happened before and it will happen in the future. CHN is not the only countries do this.

I'm sure their not, but they are responsible for the vast majority of the recent incidents.

http://article.wn.com/view/2012/05/25/Badminton_China_Coach_Lashes_Out_Over_Walkovers/

but when CHN give walk over, everyone jumps.

That article made me laugh. It brings to mind a person caught shoplifting pointing to other customers leaving the store having paid for their purchases and saying "look at all those people leaving the store carrying stuff, how come you only arrest me?"

One of the incidents he sights was LCW giving PG a WO. Firstly PG and LCW play for two different countries (look it up). Secondly, LCW suffered a confirmed ankle injury (ligament tear).

 

[SibugiChai]

It was pretty sickening when players continue to play stupid even though the tournament referee has given warning

 

[eaglehelang]

....
No the rules are not a grey area and the national teams know this which is why they haven't fought this. Anyone with the reading skills of a third grader can understand the rules and even if they didn't. They had some nice officials from the BWF come onto the court and explain it to them (this is the 4th time I've had to mention this to you). Yes the rules haven't been enforced in the past but this was a different venue and this time the outrage went beyond the badminton community so the BWF was forced to act.
.

Hiyaaa, never mind lah. However many times we mention also they wouldnt believe. I think I already posted the link on the Lawn Bowling case 5 to 6 times in various threads discussing this issue but still there are people who argue 'other sports do it and they go away with it', 'it's best effort to win the tournament not the match',etc,etc.

It's very puzzling there's big hu ha on match fixing involving bribing in sports but match fixing without bribing they consider it legal. It's like stabbing people right in front of room full of police and witnesses, with the weapon in hand and announce intentionally want to stab. If the police dont act, better dont be police.

 

[nokh88]

No the rules are not a grey area and the national teams know this which is why they haven't fought this. Anyone with the reading skills of a third grader can understand the rules and even if they didn't. They had some nice officials from the BWF come onto the court and explain it to them (this is the 4th time I've had to mention this to you). Yes the rules haven't been enforced in the past but this was a different venue and this time the outrage went beyond the badminton community so the BWF was forced to act.

BWF got to act because big brother IOC was watching that involved CHN, which this time they can't escape and this got to their fans.

 

[HiddenPower]

B.S. show me evidence or fact to back up your point and I will always reconsider my opinion. First though you need to recognize reality. Which, you are incapable of because it conflicts with your Jingoistic point of view.

Let me also remind you the 4 pairs are not CHN only, my view are not “Jingoistic point of view”.
The reality is 4 pairs got DQ’ed, got all the blame.
As for your opinion, it’s just - yours. I certainly don't need to give a crap, nor do I need to change it.

Actually you can't speak for any country. The idea that the national associations have no influence on the BWF is pure fiction.

U got any proof on this? For CHN team, show me evidence or fact to back up your point.

One of the incidents he sights was LCW giving PG a WO. Firstly PG and LCW play for two different countries (look it up). Secondly, LCW suffered a confirmed ankle injury (ligament tear).

Haha, please... Are you saying player from different country can’t give walk over?

 

[HiddenPower]

It was pretty sickening when players continue to play stupid even though the tournament referee has given warning

They got no choice. But one way or the other, they did pay for their action in the end.

 

[nokh88]

They got no choice. But one way or the other, they did pay for their action in the end.

Like I said before, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[thunder.tw]

Haha, please... Are you saying player from different country can’t give walk over?

Of course anybody can give anybody a legitimate walkover. So what's the problem with the WO given to PG by LCW?

So what I'm saying, and what anyone who can read should have been able to grasp, is that comparing a legitimate WO given due to a real injury to a bull$hit WO given to a team mate in order to advance their ranking is a completely false comparison.

Hence the shop lifter analogy which I apologize for, I should have realized that one would be over your head.

 

[SibugiChai]

They got no choice. But one way or the other, they did pay for their action in the end.

they do have choice but they choose to play stupid even after being warned.

 

[sjoe]

Anyone who blame the RR system and defending the players co. Go and watch the video of Beijing Olympic. Chen Jin vs Lin Dan, I was in the gym and so disgusted. Li Yong Bo stormed to the court going toward the service judge during the men doubles. They all should be DQ.
Not only Chen Jin vs Lin Dan, Ladies semi final was also fake.

 

[HiddenPower]

they do have choice but they choose to play stupid even after being warned.

If they play real, they fail their team. If they play fake, they get DQ'ed. It's a sad ending either way.

 

[HiddenPower]

So now there is "legitimate" walkover?

Ind woman's single also gave WO in Uber cup.

LCW also give a WO to LD (I don't remember exactly which tournament) before olympics because of injury (and it didn't look that bad at all, but hey, we never know, "legitimate" WO.). Care to explain both of these "legitimate" WO?

Were they "giving their best efforts"? I don't think so. Hey, maybe you should start calling them "cheaters" <- this is your logic.

Of course anybody can give anybody a legitimate walkover. So what's the problem with the WO given to PG by LCW?

So what I'm saying, and what anyone who can read should have been able to grasp, is that comparing a legitimate WO given due to a real injury to a bull$hit WO given to a team mate in order to advance their ranking is a completely false comparison.

Hence the shop lifter analogy which I apologize for, I should have realized that one would be over your head.

 

[eaglehelang]

Once again, goes back to Prove. Everyone can know that X did the deed but if X clean up all the evidence and no witnesses come forward, case will be closed due to insufficient evidence.As for the players,they could have seriously after the warning, as in not deliberately losing. After that, anything happen, they can blow the whistle(hopefully with evidence ) and 'we were ordered to lose but refused cos its against the code of ethics/rules.' Sound unlikely? This is exactly what happened to another lawn bowler - the official who gave the order was later kicked off the team.

Unfortunately,BWF have been wimpy all these years I suppose everyone thought they dont the have guts to act. Hopefully after this BWF will have more teeth to bite and not just talk.