Kenichi Tago made the right call at the final point but the line judge did not

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Mark A said:
Hopefully this incident will lead to the introduction of a "challenge" system like that now found in tennis. IMO there is no reason not to have such a system - it can only do good, and it's very easy to get the correct call from the replay, especially if some high frame-rate cameras are installed, so there is no need for a "Cyclops"-type device.

By the way, this wasn't the worst line-call I saw this year (though it was by far the most decisive): there was one during the Robertson/Wallwork XD match that was laughably far out.
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It has been discussed quite extensively before. The system used by tennis has been tested for badminton. The accuracy level is only about 70%, much lower than tennis due to the shape of the shuttle compared to a ball (so I understood). And it costs USD50k PER court. So, it's not as if BWF did nothing about the problem. Even if the accuracy is good, it's very unaffordable by badminton.

Another solution by BWF is to have international linesmen, but it's for addressing partisan line-calls instead of human errors which is more related to our current topic.

A lot of people (including myself) are advocating a fast camera for every line, but the logistics may be as simple as we think. I'm pretty sure BWF have considered it because it's the most obvious solution to come to mind.

I'm thinking if someone can come up with a very simple solution, he would be a hero. Something like a slightly (very slight) raised platform where it becomes more obvious whether it's in or out (like table tennis!), but I guess there will be some drawbacks to it, like causing harm to players and of course, singles and doubles have different lines. Yeah, I guess it's a pretty dumb suggestion.
 
Easy Tiger said:
I'm not asking you to read, but to understand.

The point I was illustrating, is that if he was the one relying on a couple of dudes watching shuttles travelling at 200kph for his livelihood, and it was negatively impacting on that, he'd probably change his "don't get all emo, man" attitude.

And yeah, if I was in KT's shoes, I'd be calling for change. **** yeah I would. Would you, or would you sit there like a patsy?
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But you were asking me to read, or to learn to read to be exact. But never mind.

KT is exactly the guy who got the wrong end of the stick. It's not "if" he was the one. He "was" the one. And he did not bleat. That was my point.

I think I would have reacted like how KT reacted. Disbelief, incredulous but accepting after a few moments. Of course, it's easy for me to say when I am not in his shoes at all. But I'm quite sure I wouldn't swear obscenities to the linejudge.
 
X Ball said:
When the urgency is there, LCW is second to none.
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May I remind you, KT was at matchpoint down to BCL the previous day. As well as that, he had the guts to try a flick serve against LCW at 18-20 and to let a game-deciding shot drop [out]. He is undeniably courageous.
 
hcyong said:
Frankly, it would be much more useful if the snapshot was taken with the shuttle nearer to the floor. It's somewhere in BC already, but if an animated gif is available, it would be even better.
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I know. I was just trying to see the shuttle from where and what the linesman saw. Remember, the linesman doesn't have the luxury of having slow motion as we do.
 
robin7 said:
I know. I was just trying to see the shuttle from where and what the linesman saw. Remember, the linesman doesn't have the luxury of having slow motion as we do.
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(1) I don't think the linejudge would make the call based on that position. He has the luxury to track the shuttle all the way till it struck the court. If you show him or anyone that picture, of course he can't tell.

(2) The flight of the shuttle wasn't that fast.

(3) We should not try to defend (nor attack) the linejudge. An error was made and that was that.

(4) Blame the system, but give constructive ideas.
 
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Another absurd suggestion : Maybe they can install sensors (that is sensitive to the shuttle head) just outside the lines, those that can be switched on and off to capture where the shuttle lands, depending on the "time of play", ie, switching the doubles baseline on when serving and then switch to the rear baseline as the match progresses. It may be a little costly. It can also replace the line judges.
 
Destricto_Ense said:
May I remind you, KT was at matchpoint down to BCL the previous day. As well as that, he had the guts to try a flick serve against LCW at 18-20 and to let a game-deciding shot drop [out]. He is undeniably courageous.
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I like KT's excellent presence of mind. Even at match points, he can think clearly.
That flickserve was outrageous but as Ian Wright commented to Gill Clark, it may have sharpened LCW's alertness. KT did not let a game-deciding shot drop. Rather, LCW played a non-returnable shot which KT was in no position to retrieve. It's tit for tat. You caught me, I caught you.

That last shot looked more out than in from the Tv angle. It was not the fast skimming type like in NR's match. It's a slow drop type for which the line judge would have time to react. The line judge made the call based on her/his line of sight, not the TV angle, hence the difference.

It's interesting to note that KT wins most (if not all) of the long rallies;a delight to watch and most unusual outcome for LCW. However, LCW then wins the next 2 or 3 short points. (Maybe our research expert, limsy, can check.) At this rate, LCW's in control. I remember one AE match , 2008 or 2009, TH won a long rally but then lost the next 3 points in a flash. It's as if LCW takes the win(d) out of his opponent with a long rally. LCW may not be aware of this. Win or lose a long rally, he's likely to win the next few points! Not a bad strategy. On a ratio of lose 1 long, win 3 or even 2 short rallies, it's sure win!
 
nokh88 said:
Another absurd suggestion : Maybe they can install sensors (that is sensitive to the shuttle head) just outside the lines, those that can be switched on and off to capture where the shuttle lands, depending on the "time of play", ie, switching the doubles baseline on when serving and then switch to the rear baseline as the match progresses. It may be a little costly. It can also replace the line judges.
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Since we have obviously stepped into the fantasy realm here, we could have something like in fencing, the green light comes up when the shuttle head touches the sensor, or the red light when it touches the sensor just outside the line. If the shuttle touches both at the same time (or within a very minute time), then it's green. If it touches outside first, then inside (sometimes an out shuttle can bounce in), then it remains red.

Haha, like I said, fantasy. I have no idea what technology is involved. Something has to be inserted into the cork (like those in tip of the fencing swords). Linejudges are still necessary to make the obvious in and out calls.
 
pjswift said:
KT did not let a game-deciding shot drop. Rather, LCW played a non-returnable shot which KT was in no position to retrieve. It's tit for tat. You caught me, I caught you!
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What do you mean? It was a clear, in no way beyond retrieving, from which Tago consciously withheld his racquet and watched drop out. It's plain to see in the video in the first post.
 
Destricto_Ense said:
What do you mean? It was a clear, in no way beyond retrieving, from which Tago consciously withheld his racquet and watched drop out. It's plain to see in the video in the first post.
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i should let u know before hand, pjswift wears special glasses when watching non-chinese players play. LCW is known to be nervous on closing game and match point, i have provided plenty of historical cases to her before. However, her glasses allow her to see it in 180 degree opposite view.

that out shot isn't a true clearing shot, more like a high straight drive shot, a vunerable shot in any badminton tactic because it can be counter attacked by tago easily but tago pulled back his racket to let it go out. A shot that is poor whether one call it a high drive or a low clear indicated that lcw was not in control, a shot made with no objective.
 
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hcyong said:
(1) I don't think the linejudge would make the call based on that position. He has the luxury to track the shuttle all the way till it struck the court. If you show him or anyone that picture, of course he can't tell.

(2) The flight of the shuttle wasn't that fast.

(3) We should not try to defend (nor attack) the linejudge. An error was made and that was that.

(4) Blame the system, but give constructive ideas.
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Mr Yong,

(1) Have you ever been a linejudge? It is not as easy as you have thought. I'm not suggesting biased line calls here.

(2) Linejudging has been debated since years ago, what do we have now? What can we as badminton fans do?

(3) The solution is already there. The replay was shown on the big screen right after the match point has been awarded to LCW, hasn't it? The umpire could overrule the linejudge but he didn't? What more constructive ideas you want? 3 correct challenges per game by using replays on the big screen?
 
since umpire did not see the actual shot going out, umpire cannot overrule by bwf rules.
Having bigscreen replay is for the audience and fans, bwf rules do not allow umpire to overrule base on video replay.
 
Destricto_Ense said:
What do you mean? It was a clear, in no way beyond retrieving, from which Tago consciously withheld his racquet and watched drop out. It's plain to see in the video in the first post.
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I am inclined to agree. When you watch the video you can clearly see tago could have hit it, but held the stroke back as he left the shuttle.

The only thing you cannot make out is the horizontal view. As you know when you play sometimes you may think they are out, but even if you could get it you leave it as you feel the shot could be weak. Did tago do this? not sure. It was a bad line call, thats that.
 
pjswift said:
That last shot looked more out than in from the Tv angle. It was not the fast skimming type like in NR's match. It's a slow drop type for which the line judge would have time to react. The line judge made the call based on her/his line of sight, not the TV angle, hence the difference.
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let analyse this bias view.
she does not admit it was a bad line call, instead she attributed the call to a difference of 'viewing angle'. She said the shuttle seem to be out from the tv-cam angle. However, she is also implying that from the line judge viewing angle, it could be in. Because the shuttle speed was slow, the line judge should have no trouble calling it correctly. Like, how could one doubt a line judge on calling a slow falling shuttle?? Therefore, she believe the slow and easy to detect shot should be in if looking from the line judge angle. LOL.

Let say i can read her like a book, from any angles lol
 
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robin7 said:
First of all, I felt sorry for LCW for winning his first AE title in this manner and it's just unfortunate for Tago.

But frankly, it's very hard to tell whether the shuttle was out from the naked eyes from the way the shuttle dropped.
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why only show the before photo and not the after photo?
the line judge duty is to judge where the shuttle's cork touch the floor/mat, NOT how pretty the way birdie was falling down. LOL
 
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