Integrating players

[Magwitch]

Both clubs I belong to have issues where players won't play with other players because of their lower ability level. I know this is a common issue. At my local club a beginner who isn't any good can easily get games, but there is only one top player I know of who plays with lower level players. At the other club beginners or even people who I wouldn't really call beginners can struggle to get games even in sessions that largely do not consist of high level players.

I'm considering taking a year off of my local club to travel to the other simply because I want more experience against top level players and only one such person plays any games with me at the local club, while several do at the other club. I have been thinking about ideas to achieve more integration that could be implemented. I'm not suggesting there be the aim of making things entirely equal, as in making 50% of opponents top players and 50% lower level players. This would annoy a lot of the top players, and I also think that while the average lower level player would like to play more against top level players, that doesn't mean they want to play them as much as weaker players. Does anyone know of any systems that have been implemented, or have any ideas that I could suggest for my club? It doesn't even have to be something that is implemented every session or for the full session. There are probably always pros and cons.

Certainly accommodations would have to be made. There are couples in relationships who always play together at one club. I'm not suggesting to force them to rarely play together. There are other reasons people might wish to play together that could be accommodated, such as preparing for a tournament or just that they are good friends. I guess any system of making up matches would require someone to sit out to do it, and they would often have to change pairings on the fly as people would sometimes say they wanted more of a break. I'd be prepared to volunteer to do this one day a week locally if it results in me not needing to stop coming to the club for a year.

 

[Ouchie]

It would be good to understand how you operate as a club. Sorry for the stream of questions but a club in the UK can be very different to a club in France and China.
How many people are in the club? Does your club compete in a league or anything similar? Teams vs teams or individuals playing tournaments? Or is it a place people come together to use courts? Is it more like a co-operative where people have clubbed together in order to keep costs low? Do they think of themselves as members of a club or individuals using a court? Is badminton a team sport in their eyes? Is there a queue system to decide who goes on court next and who picks the next game?

How long is a session? From my own experiences - at a club with 30+ people on 4 courts over a 2-3 hour session it would be normal for people to mix-together, picking games but with one caveat - attempt to play a balanced pairing combination. By that, I mean beginner+intermediate vs beginner+intermediate. Never try intermediate+advanced vs beginner+beginner. And try to make sure everybody gets an equal number of games. If beginner/intermediate/advanced is not suitable then come up with a different system of "levels". Level 1 is top, level X is bottom. Maybe have a level for every 5 players so there is a reasonably even spread. 20 players = 4 levels.

It might be a very British thing to do but, in my experience, this is how many UK clubs operate, everybody is aware of their own and each others ability. e.g level 1 pairs will find it too easy playing level 3 pairs but no reason to not mix 1+3 vs 1+3. Generally it is self policed and rarely do individuals try to pick obscure pairings - sometimes it is intentional for "a challenge" e.g. 2+2 vs 1+1.

Then later in the final third of the session you have the option to let players do their own thing. Maybe somebody wants to practice for a tournament, maybe a usual pairing did not play together at all so now they have the opportunity, maybe somebody wants to do exercises/drills with a feeder.

The message should be that a beginner will not gain much from playing an advanced opponent and the same for the advanced player vs a beginner. Aim to beat players around your own level and work your way up. In the spirit of fairness to all the club members there does need to be integration but it needs to be realistic and fair. I have seen clubs fail because the top level players felt pressure to play with lower level players yet these top level players were playing more competitive matches and tournaments at a high level so want and need good practice. At the top level you need quality, not quantity. At the lower level you need to improve and a range of experience will help. This is the reason to be realistic and fair with pairings.

 

[Cheung]

@Ouchie

Nicely written.

I seen clubs fail because social players want and expect to play with far higher level players. It makes people unhappy and ultimately the good players leave the club and the lower level players think the higher level players have an attitude problem. Social players and beginners have high expectations of playing much better players.

I don't know if other sports beginners are the same. Certainly in martial arts, the beginners don't really expect to go up against experienced practitioners so quickly.

 

[Cheung]

Both clubs I belong to have issues where players won't play with other players because of their lower ability level. I know this is a common issue. At my local club a beginner who isn't any good can easily get games, but there is only one top player I know of who plays with lower level players. At the other club beginners or even people who I wouldn't really call beginners can struggle to get games even in sessions that largely do not consist of high level players.

How far apart in the levels?

For yourself, I would say also keep working on your footwork and techniques. When you go to a new club, first impressions count. If you go along and you have some tennis habits in your game, this will not give such a great impression even if you beat half the players there.

I have experienced what you have when I was younger and had no coaching but plenty of enthusiasm. Later in life, I also have had a lot of coaching to change my techniques which look a lot better. After that, I found it a lot easier to get good games for example in Malaysia, Singapore, China. I went back to UK in the summer and in one club session, the older guys were trying to get me a game with the higher level players but these higher level guys had formed their own little group (and cheated the system). I didn't let it bother me because I was just there for a bit of exercise and socialising.

 

[Z-Force III]

@Ouchie

Nicely written.

I seen clubs fail because social players want and expect to play with far higher level players. It makes people unhappy and ultimately the good players leave the club and the lower level players think the higher level players have an attitude problem. Social players and beginners have high expectations of playing much better players.

I don't know if other sports beginners are the same. Certainly in martial arts, the beginners don't really expect to go up against experienced practitioners so quickly.

IMO even out games is the worst you can do to me. Especially forcing decent players to get paired with a chaotic lemon for doubles or just need to win because who is able to target the weak player more is nothing which help anybody. The advanced players fall asleep, while the beginners get the heat.

IMO it is necessary to figure out the attitude and how serious somebody is. If a beginner is interested to learn and train, I can be supportive, but as long as I don't get paid for I'm nobody's personal trainer for free. I also don't waste my recreational time for nothing which gives me any benefit.

@Cheung I really enjoy to play in your country. I take my level, go to the session of my time and had great games at my level. Never got a crappy partner or felt to hold somebody back to win.

IMO if a beginner or some hobby players have a loose attititude, why should I give them my time, when I'm a serious player? IMO most clubs lack to have a coach who make the lower player improve, or the lower players pick the wrong club for their ambition. I mean if you just wanna punch a few shuttle and have a beer afterwards it is absolute okay, but that you won't fit well together with somebody who don't drink, have diets and train hard is a logical consequence. I don't understand why the people who invested more, always need to compromise and the guys with a loose attitude and without any willing to improve get everything. For me depending which type of player you are not every club is for you.

If the club is huge, split the sessions into levels. If the club is small there must be explored which type of club it should be. The BBQ, Beer and a bit of Badminton or the Club of serious players who wanna improve. Both together without split sessions is IMO impossible. One side will always unhappy.

 

[Ouchie]

I don't understand why the people who invested more, always need to compromise and the guys with a loose attitude and without any willing to improve get everything. For me depending which type of player you are not every club is for you.

This is so true.

The assumption that people have to help beginners is very presumptuous. Maybe the better players have not finished their own playing journey yet so giving up time to help others to improve is not going to happen no matter how much it is "expected".

 

[Daniel Theo]

Yes I'm intersting

 

[Magwitch]

It would be interesting if I surveyed the group of players in my club not in the top group. My guess is that at least 2/3 would prefer more games against the top players, with the weaker players less likely to want this. Of those who want more matches, I bet that nearly all would not actually want equality, as in 50% of opponents top level 50% not. I don't think many absolute beginners would want to play top players (I didn't have any particular desire at first), and I would avoid putting lemons with the top players.

 

[Ballschubser]

It would be interesting if I surveyed the group of players in my club not in the top group. My guess is that at least 2/3 would prefer more games against the top players, with the weaker players less likely to want this. Of those who want more matches, I bet that nearly all would not actually want equality, as in 50% of opponents top level 50% not. I don't think many absolute beginners would want to play top players (I didn't have any particular desire at first), and I would avoid putting lemons with the top players.

Okay, here is the situation in my club with me as new player (~8-9 month now) with lot of enthusiasm.

First off, the club separates recreational players from ambitious players in two ways. There's an extra performance training session for young player who want to compete. Then there's a training session only for senior recreational players who want to have some fun but do not like to compete or improve at all.

Second, every player , the good one too, especially if they are currently in the season, want to play vs better players. A player who has a much higher level than you need to tone down his game a lot to let you get into the game at all. He is more or less degenerating his game to allow to play with you. If the good one do not tone down his game, you will learn nothing at all. The difference in game play are really noticeable, from 'oh, I need to be a little bit quicker to get it next time' to 'wtf is happening here, I didn't even see the shuttle flying this way'.

Work your way up. Try to win every single rally vs players at your level, try to practise every single minute a court is free. You don't even need a player to improve considerable. Just plain old shadow footwork will help you a lot. The better player will see your motivation and they will approach you and offer some practise games.

I noticed, that the good players are more willing to play a match near the end of the training session, when the other good players are already done or leaving. It is more or less an active cool down for them.

 

[Z-Force III]

From my current club it is often the case that new people or beginner attend to the time which suits them most, instead of visiting the group which suits them the most. They visit the club which is the closest instead of chosing the club which is closer to there level.

I agree with @Ballschubser. I'm more in the mood to play a beginner in the end, than in the early minutes of a session. If I tone down in the early minutes of the sessions I will struggle to catch up my peak performance for the games which matter more to me. I fall asleep.

IMO it really depends how huge the gap between the players is. IMO the difference of two leagues is the max for acceptable games and depends where you start.

If beginners attend, they won't get much play here. Consequence of visiting the time of experienced and league players. One of the league players is a coach for the kids and teenagers and offer these players to visit these times first for a while, because the gap is smaller and they are in an enviroment to get basics, like grip, doubles positioning, serve etc.

During a training session of the seniors impossible. We do there complex drills which involve some security, shot control and placement and basic footwork, otherwise the exercise is wasted for everyone and you can't kill the improvement for all, because somebody don't know how to hold the racket.

If the standard of play is within a two leagues difference you can try a peg board system to allow anybody an equal court time. If you have much more players than courts, you can split the groups or make a rule of playing just 1 set. Nobody will wait too long and the frequency between sitting and playing is high. Nobody will get cold during pause, or can keep warm themself with light off-court exercises like running, rope skipping, HIIT etc.

I'm very against a categorizing, but sometimes it is really necessary. You need a organizer, who count the players, divide them into smaller groups of closer level and than run different pegs for different courts. If somebody wanna play with other players in the other group you can make an excel sheet which record the games of each individual. So the ambitous players, have the chance to proof them even if they fit in the lower group first. If they won too often, they can get get categorized in a different level. The people who are interested to play at same level in 5 years like now, won't get better win rates. So lower players get a chance to get into group of better players, if they are willing without risking that you mess up the quality of the better players.

If somebody don't understand that in sports are different levels you compete at, he should leave. If I wanna start anything to learn like a language or anything else there are always groups for starters, experienced, intermediate and advanced. If I wanna be advanced, I need to prove to belong to this.

 

[Magwitch]

The local club has social comps where you have combinations like 1-4. The 1's are top players and the 4's, well, aren't. In the context of a comp the top players are happy to play weak players. But of course they are never playing two weaker players, as 1-4 means one is strong.

 

[Magwitch]

I guess it's weird coming from a table tennis club which is different to a surprising level. If a beginner comes along to table tennis practice top grade players won't say no to playing with them. In fact, they will often seek the person out and give them informal coaching and do drills with them. If these players keep playing they can get good quickly.

I get that that top (badminton) players shouldn't be obligated to help out those who are not. There are a number of players in my club who are intermediate, but have a step up to become a top player. These people put in a lot of hours. My belief, based on what I've seen of beginner table tennis players who practice hard often with top players, is that if the top players in the club played just 1/3 of their matches against one of these players (as in playing against one intermediate player and one top player) there would be at least half a dozen more top players in the club. If that were the case then on some quiet nights the top players wouldn't be forced into a series of repetitive matches. So to me, in cases when people in the club are dedicated to improving, the idea of top players not wanting to play any matches with intermediate players is shortsighted and will probably mean they actually get less competitive matches long term.

 

[Cheung]

I think that’s a good point.

mostly table tennis is a game of singles. Small area, perhaps quite a number of tables, easy to rotate people around quickly.

badminton is mostly doubles. One obviously weaker player can’t keep up with three others. Court space might be harder to arrange meaning people need to travel more. People dynamics with four on court are more complicated.


What happens in tennis clubs? Do really good competitive guys play much with beginners/social players?

 

[Ballschubser]

If these players keep playing they can get good quickly.

Maybe here is the difference. I don't know table tennis a lot, but badminton is one of the most physically demanding sports out there. Regardless of your skill level, you need to gain good power, good speed, good acceleration, good stamina to play good badminton. You can't get better over night on this, your body needs to adapt and this needs years (when you are younger it will be quicker ).

Therefor, regardless of your skill, a much better player will drain your battery so quickly, that you can't hold the shuttle any longer after a few rallies or he plays on a much lower level, but then again, why play vs a better player who degenerates his game instead of playing vs someone on your level.. you will only get an advantage if you play vs someone who is a moderatly better than you.

 

[Ballschubser]

IMO the difference of two leagues is the max for acceptable games and depends where you start.

I'm currently not playing in a league, but I think (hope) that I could compete in the lowest league(Kreisklasse in germany). My experiences are
+1 league(Kreisliga): I can't beat them, yet I can challenge them on some rallies. They make a lot less errors which is their greatest advantage.
+2 league(Bezirksklasse): It is clearly visible that they tone down their game, they play at a lower pace, smash less often, try to play some risky trick shots etc.
+4/5 leagues(Landes-/Verbandsliga): Holy s..., zero chance at all, you don't even know how to counter it. The speed with which they reach the shuttle is astonishing compared to you. They know where you will play the shuttle and you don't know where they will play it (high level of deception). The pace is a lot faster. It looks sooo easy watching pros playing badminton, but playing even vs some middle league players is so freaking hard.

Thought it is fun to play vs higher level players, I get the most from playing vs +1 league players. They are able to win, but I'm able to see, where I need to improve, what works and what does not work at all, which you will never experience playing vs a much better player. When they start to commit, that they need to exert a little bit more to win the match you know that you have improved.

 

[Z-Force III]

I think that’s a good point.

mostly table tennis is a game of singles. Small area, perhaps quite a number of tables, easy to rotate people around quickly.

badminton is mostly doubles. One obviously weaker player can’t keep up with three others. Court space might be harder to arrange meaning people need to travel more. People dynamics with four on court are more complicated.


What happens in tennis clubs? Do really good competitive guys play much with beginners/social players?

I agree here. The size, number and availability of the courts play a huge role as well.

And this is the reason why badminton got run mostly as doubles because too many people there and to less courts due the size.

And even if players play them and are supportive, I realls doubt that without any interest of improving or boring exercises they can catch up. And even if they have it no everybody improve equally over time. I know people who play badminton since the age of 7 and never got past Kreisklasse. I really doubt that as a rule of thumb a few years are enough to make them equal in TT. If I don't have enough opponents at my level and above, I wouldn't train beginners to have potential sparring partners within X years, I would move on and look for a different club.

 

[Magwitch]

Maybe here is the difference. I don't know table tennis a lot, but badminton is one of the most physically demanding sports out there. Regardless of your skill level, you need to gain good power, good speed, good acceleration, good stamina to play good badminton. You can't get better over night on this, your body needs to adapt and this needs years (when you are younger it will be quicker ).

Therefor, regardless of your skill, a much better player will drain your battery so quickly, that you can't hold the shuttle any longer after a few rallies or he plays on a much lower level, but then again, why play vs a better player who degenerates his game instead of playing vs someone on your level.. you will only get an advantage if you play vs someone who is a moderatly better than you.

So is badminton different to table tennis and tennis in this regard? Because when I look at what top juniors in these sports do they start tournaments young and tend to avoid entering events in their age group, often choosing to play people two or more age groups up. I assume top tennis players today did this. They play people bigger and stronger, and at first they will get smashed. People who win junior grand slams tend to quickly ditch entering more of these events even if still eligible and go straight to senior grand slams if they can, even if they have no chance of winning at first. It's a long term strategy. Are you saying that top under 12 players in badminton avoid playing under 16 and up events if the people are much better than them?

A top badminton player asked to play half court singles with me early on, and the way he moved me around exposed some major weaknesses with footwork that I realized I needed to work on with my coach.

 

[Magwitch]

Also, just wondered if in most clubs top players are happy to play in social competitions in which there are beginners. In our club there may be beginners playing, but the comps are quite popular amongst top players. In the most recent comp, the first since I joined, they had it on a separate day to the usual three practice sessions, so it wasn't like they were in a position where they had to choose between the social comp and not playing at all. So if a competition is involved all top players in my club are happy to play games that sometimes include beginners. There is one top player who has only once chosen to play a match with me, when he saw my partner was another top player.

 

[Magwitch]

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[Ballschubser]

They play people bigger and stronger, and at first they will get smashed. People who win junior grand slams tend to quickly ditch entering more of these events even if still eligible and go straight to senior grand slams if they can, even if they have no chance of winning at first. It's a long term strategy. Are you saying that top under 12 players in badminton avoid playing under 16 and up events if the people are much better than them?

A top badminton player asked to play half court singles with me early on, and the way he moved me around exposed some major weaknesses with footwork that I realized I needed to work on with my coach.

That all have more to do with coaching than with some social playing. It might be a coaching concept ot let already good junior players play vs seniors to challenge them. The difference is, that these juniors are no longer beginners. And that someone pointed out your weaknesses is more coaching than social playing too, just watching you while you play would fullfil the same task.