Can I just say something more about political correctness ? It's not badminton related though. In England a couple of years ago the police chief stated "..the majority of certain crimes are done by black people in London..we should work together with the community leaders..". The press went mad and in TV discussions people were labelling him a racist. It made me mad because people just brushed the fact under the carpet and ignored it - no progress was made - and the police chief never mentioned it again for fear of being called a racist. If people accepted the fact they could work together and help solve the problem. To be honest badminton must be the most international sport in my country. People are much more judgemental (and snobish)about badminton skill. In London there are a a few all black badminton club (E.g.The Black Arrows). When I went to one of these clubs for the first time I got a few looks like "who the hell is this white guy" - by the end of the evening it's "why don't you join our club" Going back to perhaps the real issue of badminton snobishness. I must admit I too refuse to play with people if their level is not good enough. I have to battle through 2 hours of traffic to get only 4 games and I cannot use my precious badminton time helping someone. If I was a social player it wouldn't matter so much but being competitive it would also be detrimental to my game.
In my years of playing I saw many injuries and accidents caused by different level players playing doubles in particular. The most severe one was a dislocated retina (??) with problems in 1 eye. Reason was the serve was bad and instead of ducking the server just stood still watching. Possibly he did not know what to do. The receiver just went for the kill trying for the sideline but instead hit his opponent's eye. I played a lot at community centers since coming to Canada. Before I usually played with friends or players about my level. In community centers many beginner level players like to partner with me because I usually do not play to win and according to them they do not feel pressured and enjoy the match better. In another place where I play the rules are that you can not choose your partner and play according to whoever is on the list. Usually when you discover who are the 3 other players they will try to sort out the most "balanced teams" and have a enjoyable game. The results is the current year many of the better players did not return to the club preferring to play elsewhere. In my opinion Vince proceeded well. And the other 3 that preferred to sit out the game is also ok. They prefer to wait and have a more competitive/enjoyable game is their choice. Like Paul mentioned in his post you do not know how much time they have in a week to play so they should not be criticized for trying to make the most of their time. As for myself like I said, I play with all levels but that does not mean that I do not want to play with players of my level. In fact I prefer to play with players of my level much more!
viver, you sound like me. I don't have the urges to win game as bad as other players. I play to hone my skill. Maybe that's why rarely compete in tournaments. If i'm/we ahead, i purposely make weaker returns so my opponent can catch up in point AND for an second reason as well, to force myself to make very tough defensive shot, in essense, bring back difficulties on my side of the court. Weird logic, isn't it. But i want to invents way to make my shots more diffcult to play.
one more lesson for you brett. This time, I will use tough words to punch through your deep seated illogic values. First: By broad brush labeling anybody who refers your ethnic type with the words "black, or negro, or..." as racist and bigot, then you yourself is a bigger racist and bigot. Your mindset had already stereotyped people who uses those "black, etc" words, disregarding it content or intention of use, as racist and bigot. You are such a sucker for words is my conclusion. Second: You have been suckered all your life by people who say politically correct things to you, even though they might hate your ------ gut and they even smile at you too. Remember, rednecks and KKK can speak fluent english too. Third: You have been suckered all you life by people who say nothing to you at all. Yes, they are your pals, buddy buddy, right? NOT. Maybe these people hate your gut so much that they don't want to show their real feeling because those real feeling maybe illegal to express in public. Get the drift? So, when you close the door tomorrow for school or work, look around you. The 3 groups of people that i described above pretty well cover the everyone in the whole wide world (www). That means according to your values and logic of above, everyone in the www hates you. Is that possible? I suggest you go look at the mirror and reflect upon your screwed up values and mindset. Yes, these are tough words but i'm sure your mother had used tough words on you before, right? Now it's time to ask yourself this important question, who is your real friend(s) and teacher(s) brett? I know your parent are. Is it also the 2nd and 3rd group of people that i just described? Or is it people who uses tough words or to the point words like "black" on you? If you still don't know, then you are unsaveable and a racist in my book and would have a very tough life because majority of people in this www belongs to group #2 and #3. Good luck! cooler
Jeez, we're getting awfully personal now, aren't we? This is beginning to smell like a dead thread, verging even on something destructive to this forum. I can only say I too got a bad taste in my mouth when I read Vince's original posting, where he kept mentioning that the teenager was black, as if this would be a key point. However, I decided to let it go as it could well be an effect of him not mastering the nuances of a foreign language, which applies to a lot of us here, including me. But I see no reason to flame Brett either for speaking out, and eloquently so too. Isn't this issue just a big misunderstanding? Isn't it time we let it go?
Mag said: **Isn't this issue just a big misunderstanding?** Unfortunately, Brett didn't say he misunderstood vince. Brett had said ** Vince, I still stand behind my original comment that if the color of this teenager's skin made no difference to you and/or to your friends,......** Mag said : **But I see no reason to flame Brett either for speaking out, and eloquently so too.** In my book, speaking eloquently doesn't make that people right. Mag said: ** This is beginning to smell like a dead thread**. Your right because most people belongs to catergory #3 (of previous post) Mag said: **Jeez, we're getting awfully personal now, aren't we? ** Mag, how do one help their neighbor in difficulty? Mag said: ** verging even on something destructive to this forum.** If the real truth is destructive, then so be it, but i have no regrets. Have a nice day. BTW, this is a politically correct and safe statement to make, right? cooler .
Final comment I would like to make a few comments here and then hopefully we can all put the issues in this and in the "Asian Badminton Players" posting to rest for good and just focus on badminton. First and foremost, I recognize that there is a line between taking a reasonable stand to promote racial equality, fighting racism or perceived racism, etc... and turning into a PC (political correctness) Gestapo agent, seeking to suppress all thought or expression that might be remotely construed by a hyper-sensitive individual to be related to racism. I do not think I am in the latter category. As an individual who has, in the distant past, been the subject of prejudice and discrimination, I am sensitive (but not unreasonably so) to the issue of discrimination; this sensitivity is not because I have problems dealing with my own past but because my own experiences have been a factor causing me to have concern for other individuals and our society in general. A number of the postings in this and the related topic have attacked me and drawn analogies that they have attributed to me that are totally groundless and altogether unrelated to any point that I mentioned in this forum. If you read my prior postings, it should be clear that my opionions on race, as it applies to badminton, boil down to essentially the following two points: 1. The explanation for why certain countries or areas of the world produce more top level badminton players is properly based upon popularity of the sport in those countries, not upon the racial characteristics of the people playing badminton; 2. Unless there is direct relevance to the story in mentioning a person's race, why bring up the issue? Let's simply focus on people as equal individuals, rather than try unneccessarily to classify them into categories based upon their ancestory and think of a person, and/or treat that person differently because of that classification. There was a long argument made implying that I was ridiculous for claiming that one should never mention a person's race at all, asserting that under my viewpoint, it would be wrong for a witness to mention a criminal suspect's race to the police, as that distinction would be "racist." I believe the author thought he/she was clever in making this argument, which asserted an absurd point, falsely attributed that opinion to me and then condemned me for being equally absurd. Those sorts of arguments are known as "strawman" arguments and, as in this case, are made by individuals in a debate who lack either the factual basis, the patience and/or the intellectual ability to make an intelligent argument. Race is not irrelevant to all situations and Ihave never asserted that point. My point is, that if race has no genuine bearing on a particular situation, then don't mention it or otherwise make it an issue. Under free speach principles in America and other democratic countries, people have, within certain reasonable limits ( i.e. they are not permitted to advocate violence against minority groups of people), the right to state their opinions, even if they are racist opinions, and I do not seek to eliminate that right to free speach. However, if a person has a right to make a statement that is offensive to a majority of other individuals, then certainly other people have the right to state their own opinions condemning the offensive comments, and a bigot should not whine about being criticized for his blatantly atagonistic and illogical opinions. I am not blind to the distinctions between the various racial and ethnic peoples throughout the world. There are a few distinctions, such as height and stature, that might have a bearing on athletic ability in particular sports (e.g., most Innuit [Eskimo] people would have a difficult time becoming an NBA player because of height characteristics). However most other distinctions between various peoples just aren't relevant, in sports or in any other area. Hitler devoted tremendous and horrific attention and resources to obtain "scientific" proof of the superiority of the so-called Arian race and the inferiority of other races, all of which was found to be nonsense. This is why I am critical of several of the non-scientific conclusions that were raised by various individuals in this forum, that seemed based solely on stereotypes and hearsay. I do not pretend to think that racism and bigotry will be eliminated in our lifetimes. However, if open-minded individuals take an active role in condeming bigotry then we will gradually see less public racism, which will cause it to decline and is certainly a worthy goal that we should all embrace. I have not directly accused any individual who has contributed to this forum of being a racist. Without question, Vince and his friends treated the teenager in a prejudicial fashion, based on at least a prejudice against less skilled players. Again, I want to emphasize that Vince did at least play a bit with the kid, which places him in better light, in my eyes, than his friends. The facts as presented suggested that there may have been prejudice based upon the teenager's race, but those facts may also have been simply portrayed in that fashion unintentionally. I hope that my comments apply to a situation in which there were inadvertant suggestions of a racism that does not actually exist with those individuals. It is entirely possible (and certainly preferable) to express oneself fully and descriptively without either implying implying a racist motivation or feeling paranoid about being sufficiently PC. To conclude, I propose we should all be helpful to badminton newcomers and avoid communicating in a fashion that suggests bigoted beliefs. Let's return to real badminton discussions on this forum.
Cooler Final comment Brett, you really know how to write eloquently. As a truthful and factual person, however, i do look at the real content and intention of one motive or writing in this case. You had proclaimed that you've never declared anyone here a racist: Brett said: **I have not directly accused any individual who has contributed to this forum of being a racist** Should I remind you what you had said before with your own words: Brett said: **However, you did mention his race so I believe it is fair to conclude that you felt there was some relevance to race in that situation and the only relevance I can imagine would be if you had prejudices against differences in race. **. To me, that is sufficient enough to imply the person, vince, a racist. How direct of an accusation does one need? Furthermore, Brett also had said: **What difference could the kid's race or color make to you and your friends, unless you had some racial biases against black people? ** Uh Oh, can you say " Vince is a racist? " (In Mr. Roger's tone). Further quotes from Brett: **The second problem I have with your account of this badminton session is that there are strong undercurrents of bigotry in your story** Uh Oh, racist implication for the 3rd time. Brett sure like to make his real point across does he? It looks like some people are impossible to change, no matter how much logics, facts, and analogies use to show them. Well, good luck to your life brett, I think you will do well if you just hide behind your eloquent writing and speeches. Eloquent is also an excellent skill to have for badminton too. I don't need to explain more to readers. Now the truths and facts are all out on the table for us all to see. Good day, Cooler
Correction Yes i too sometime make statement that i like to retract. I'm not perfect but i do try to correct or make clarification it if i know about it. In this case, it was my statement of: Mag said: ** verging even on something destructive to this forum.** If the real truth is destructive, then so be it, but i have no regrets. What i really meant was that truth hurts sometime, then so be it, but i have no regrets. I have absolutely no intention or motive to destroy this great badminton forum/website. As i said before in another thread, it is the most active badminton forum in www as well as containing lots of great product reviews from users, links, lots of diehard badminton enthusiasts and the best thread hierarchy and retrieval setup i've used. So i apologize for this skippage in my writing. cooler
RE: Cooler Final comment Thanks Mag, I'm relax now because the true 'color' had been revealed for all to see.
Should I open another can of worms? Actually there is a reason why I mention the teenager is "black" but I didn't want to state my reason on my original post because it might create another controversy. If Brett wants to know why, I will state my reason but you might not able to handle the true.
RE: Should I open another can of worms? CAN WE JUST CUT IT PLEASE? While I agree that this is an important topic in life, this is NOT the right place to debate race. This discussion does not belong here. People here come from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds. We have a responsibility to consider that when we post to this forum. Equally important, we have a responsibility as readers to be liberal to the fact that people here have different levels of fluency in English. Otherwise we'll just end up flaming each other (already happening, see?) and that is NOT constructive. Take a deep breath. If you still want to flame somebody, I suggest you go elsewhere.
RE: Should I open another can of worms? Mag, relax.... As you have said, this is an important topic in life. So, i don't think it a big deal to sacrifice 1 or 2 threads to talk about it. I have read alot and belongs alot of of forums on the internet. I can assure you that with the market downturn, those other forums contain 50% to 75% off topic subjects and most of them are basic degratory and not even classified as discussion. So, I see people in badmintoncentral forum very well behave and stick to discussion of content, on topics and off topics. As u have said, people here come from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Whether u like it or not, badminton will involve people, interaction of people of different playing level and personal background. If we can get a better understanding of each other, there would be less conflict in general. This would be the betterment of sharing court time, more cross college tournaments, more friendly cross barrier types of tournaments, locally and internationally. I don't see fluency in english is a problem here. I haven't seen anyone here been accused or make accusation of poor grammer and spelling usage. If we talk about contents, whether on or off topics, i don't it would lead to inflaming someone. If it does, then, it is the weakness of that inflamed person by letting his/her emotion or rage controlling over their logic and common sense. cooler
As an well educated post secondary student attennding university, it brings me to the conclusion that you're for all types of words. So, when I refer to a homosexual, I can use such words as Faggot, Queer, Homo... Women: bitches, whores, babes, chicks... Asians; slants, gooks, charlie, chinks... African Amerincans: negroes, niggers, blacks, monkey.. I've obviously offended many people here which was my intention to prove a point that there is a specific reason why there are better words to use or as Brett said avoid labeling people in the first place, if the matter doesn't require it.
Don, Don, Don, those words don't bother me because you are making a point. However, you have insulted other people from over half of the world population. What your have referring asian people like russian, pakistanese, indian, indonesian (#1 badminton enthusiast), thai people, burmian afghanistanese, iranian, and tiger wood, is simpily unforgivable. If you were a grade school kid, i might understand. But you have proclaimed that u r educated and attending university. I laughed so hard that i fell off my chair. You couldn't distinguish between good and bad, when and what words to use. I don't believe my eyes here that you've made it this far in your education ladder. But I will take out some of my precious time to educate you since you real intention was good and you like my favorite activity, badminton. Vince use of 'black teenager' was very correct and careful. Some people might just called that kid just 'black'. Ok, the lesson. Black is not a dirty word. Negro is not a dirty word. Nigger or monkey (referred to a human being) is bad words. OK? You need some real examples? Here is some headlines and quotes from professional journalists and the President of the USA: (sorry, no special fonts) ----------------------------- Tuesday January 16 4:01 PM ET Teddy Roosevelt, Civil War Black Get Medal of Honor By Randall Mikkelsen ``In the case of the black soldier in the long-ago Civil War, it sometimes takes a long time to get things right. But Theodore Roosevelt reminded us that the only way we do that is by constantly focusing on the future,'' Clinton said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tuesday January 16 4:34 AM ET Bush Reaches Out to Blacks, Honors King By Arshad Mohammed HOUSTON (Reuters) - Reaching out to blacks who voted overwhelmingly against him, President-elect George W. Bush vowed to improve public schools as a way to realize Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream of racial equality. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Last March, the company joined industry competitors in announcing its commitment to a $130 million partnership with the United Negro College Fund. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After lunch with Baucus, Clinton stopped by the headquarters of the National Council of Negro Women to honor its longtime leader, Dorothy Height, and accept a bust of the group's founder, Mary McLeod Bethune. ----------------------------------------- Tuesday January 16 6:09 PM ET Study: Blacks' VA Death Rate Lower By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer CHICAGO (AP) - Running against the tide of previous research, a new study has found a racial disparity in medicine that actually favors blacks: Black patients at Veterans Affairs hospitals have lower death rates than whites. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don and Brett, if you still have problem with this, please write to the White House, Reuters, or any established professional new media organisation. I have donated enough time and energy on you two. However, thanks for the laugh............... cooler
Cooler, you may have devoted time and energy on this issue, but it is clear that you did not devote enough intellectual energy to be able to understand the points that Don, Magnus and I very clearly set forth in our messages. We made two points: 1) If a person's race, ancestry, background, etc... is not relevant to the issue, then it is wrong to characterize the person as a "black teenager," a "Jewish woman," etc... because it suggests that the reason the author has characterized the person in that fashion was for no reason except because the author has prejudices against that category of people. 2) If a person's race, ancestry, background, etc... is relevant to an issue, then there is no problem identifying a person or group of persons by their race, etc..., PROVIDED that that identification is done in a non-derogatory manner. You completely misunderstood or mischaracterized Don's argument - you had stated earlier that anyone should be able to label anyone else with any characterization at all and he clearly showed that your opinion is wrong. He gave you the example of the various derogatory terms for different groups of people, not to offend anyone, but to show you that many people would be offended by the various slang and derogatory terms he listed which would be acceptable under your rules. Your so-called examples from the media are ridiculous and show that you do not understand how to make a point by using examples and analogies. First, in all of those articles mentioning black Americans, the race of the individuals to whom the speech was directed or race of the people in the medical study WAS relevant to those news articles and was not derogatory. Second, in two of the headlines, the word "Negro" was used, but in that specific context, as part of the official name of an organization, it was not derogatory to use that term. The use of the word "Negro" is no longer generally accepted in America (and I would presume in Canada as well) because it was a term commonly used in America during former times when racism was a widespread part of American culture and that term now has negative connotations from that discriminatory time. However, a number of organizations, that were founded long ago by black Americans to promote the welfare of black Americans, used the term "Negro" in their names and have retained their original name because of historical pride in the accomplishments and longetivity of their organizations over many decades. Cooler, if you do not understand these issues, then you should ask someone who is more intelligent or mature than you or who has a better grasp of English, to explain these issues to you. If you do understand these issues but are arguing merely because you think you are clever for being so antagonistic and confrontational, then I suggest that you try to find a little more self-confidence and happiness in your life by doing positive things, such as volunteer for a charity, than continue with these negative, sophomoric arguments.
First, you have stated that you are done finishing your final comment for me. Can't handle the truth, uh? It hurts doesn't it? You write long but says nothing with content. brett said **then I suggest that you try to find a little more self-confidence and happiness in your life by doing positive things, such as volunteer for a charity, than continue with these negative, sophomoric arguments.** Brett, it take two to tangle. You keep contradicting yourself in every post, people here think you're silly. Like i said before, take your beef to the white house and media organization.
Apprently you haven't learned or even attempted to learn professional and ethical conduct. I'm suprised, seeing you live out West and I live in Ottawa. It is apparently true that you are out of touch with the times and haven't understood how to approach a situation such as this. Maybe you should attend professional and ethical conduct seminars and learn. If ethinicity isn't a factor then don't state it. If you do state then it is a factor and you better have concrete facts to support your reason that would affect the overall story. I've never explicitly stated that Vince was a racist, but was stating that he shouldn't use such words in context the next time around or becareful how he states his comments. Now, you're playing the blame game, blame the media, blame Washington. Washington of all places should not be blamed because they've instituted many codes of conduct to ethnic sensitivity. As for the media, it's not so hard for people to find other means of media that are intellectually forthgiving such as a book. It all comes down to the individual to take the initiative to understand this issue. You're only stalling the problem. Out of curiosity do you still use the word Eskimo over Inuit?
this is enough. fellow shuttlers, i think it is time to move on. it is very unproductive to continue this thread. race, ethics and political correctness are very sensitive matter, people spend their careers trying to figure it out. it is clear that you all have strong and different opinions on the matter and no one is going to win. so i propose that we should make peace instead of war. this forum is here for badminton, and let's stick to our focus. badminton is what everyone loves and that's why we are here. there are many more wonderful badminton things that can be talked about so let's amplify on those and put our differences aside. shall we?
