Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Congratulations Adel. UVA is a good school. I have known people who went there and said that they not only got a good education, but didn't have to work all that hard for it and had a heck of a good social life there. I think UVA students pay a bit too much attention to some of the southern traditions there and take their fraternities and sororities too seriously, but it's a big enough school that you should be able to find plenty of activities to do and people to meet to be happy there no matter what sort of person you are. The only really negative thing I have to say about Virginia is that VIRGINIA LACROSSE SUCKS! (I went to Johns Hopkins, whose biggest sport is lacrosse [best team sport on earth] and UVA was one of our biggest rivals - even in seasons when we were ranked #1 in the country and had a better record, we seldom could beat Virginia). What other colleges are on your list of possibilities?
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Well, I just learned about my acceptance to Northwestern last night (YES! YES! YES! Pardon my enthusiasm but it's the college that I really wanted to attend) and I have yet to hear from Penn and Georgetown. If the latter offers me a place, I'm going to be at my wits end because Georgetown is simply terrific for International Relations, a course that I'm pretty enthusiastic about. Brett, may I ask if you were an International Relations graduate? I know Johns Hopkins is good for that too, and (I hope you don't take this as an insult) you sound very much like some foreign affairs official =) I know what you mean about UVa though, I've been keeping in touch with a senior there and it sounded kind of parochial to me (apologies to anyone with connections to the U). In the meantime, thanks everyone for your well-wishes. I promise to be a good girl, study hard and keep the badminton spirit burning wherever I may be. And Kwun, you're a mean pig (joking)... =(
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Theoretically the Olympics is the pinnacle of sportmanship. Are all athletes there competing equally? Explanations or justifications the bottom line is the gold medal. I have never mentioned if I agreed with the process but here are professionals involved where being second is same to losing. Who is happy being second or feeling accomplished losing in the final? Individual sports has its own specifics and from the people involved in high level I have the chance to meet I never heard anybody fighting for second. Chen post pointed very clearly the Chinese system. You may not like/agree with it but that's the way it works over there. It may also not be perfect but for them is the best for now. From your previous posts you already shown that you are quite an intelligent person - do you believe that the Olympic results do not have their impact in the political side of a country? Say US not winning a medal or just having a silver medal in swimming, losing in basketball finals with the Dream team, losing the finals of 100m dash, losing the 4 x 100m, the 400 m. Saying that the results are only individual ...
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Northwestern is an excellent university. congratulations!! and who says she's not smart?? Chicago, eh? you better start stocking up on those speed 52 shuttles... ok. now i am being mean.
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Congratulations Adel! My girlfriend's mother, grandfather and sister-in-law, as well as one of my best friends, all went to Northwestern and loved it there. Penn and Georgetown are both excellent schools, and, depending on the particular field of study, might edge out Northwestern slightly in terms of academic competitiveness. I have found that most of the Georgetown graduates I have met, like UVA graduates, tend to think that their school is on par with Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford and won't hesitate to tell people that opinion; from a purely academic standpoint, they are quite mistaken. Yes, I did study international relations at Johns Hopkins, after I determined that the pure sciences did not suit me and that the best medical school I could probably attend would be the Medical College of Grenada or the medical school of the Southeast Mississippi State University and Cosmetology School. If you wanted to focus on a social life in college, you did well to avoid my alma mater. About fifteen years ago, some magazine, Rolling Stone I think, did a ranking of party schools in the US and Johns Hopkins was ranked the second to the last on the list, beating only CalTech. This means that (as accurate as such a survey can be) my classmates and I had less fun at our college than the students of practically any other school in the country, including the cadets at the U.S. Military Academy (Westpoint), the U.S. Naval Academy (Annapolis), the U.S. Air Force Academy and even Kwun's alma mater, Carnegie Mellon University.
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Well, I got my entire application package from Northwestern today and a rejection letter from Georgetown (bleah!), which means a lot less decision-making to be done... I accepted Northwestern's offer without even waiting for Penn coz I didn't want to go to a college that was overflowing with Singaporeans. Besides, I'm not terribly confident about Penn...even if I do make it there, I have a gut feeling I wouldn't be able to handle the workload. Uh well, that's about all I have to say about college for the time being... it's strange. When I didn't get Northwestern's letter, I was really freaking out. Now that I've filled in the reply slip, I'm beginning to get scared. I think I'm going to miss my parents VERY VERY MUCH and yes, all the badminton matches (sob! sob!)... is it just me or do all people who go overseas for college react like this? Kwun?
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Viver, there certainly is some truth to your statement that Olympic medals bring glory to both the team's country and the athletes on the team. I think I covered the important distinctions between team and individual sports in my last posting. By their very natures, team sports can require self-sacrifice for the benefit of the team on a whole, whereas in individual sports, the athletes should achieve successes and failures by virtue of their own efforts and perhaps luck, rather than through manipulation by outside forces. On a scale ranging from the present-day glory (or lack thereof) of the East German womens' swiming teams of the 1970's to 1980's (all taking heavy doses of steroids) to the glory of the U.S. hockey team in the 1980 Olympics beating the Soviets and then taking home the gold medal**, I would consider China's 2000 Olympic medals in womens' badminton to rank much closer to the East German swimmers' medals for the level of glory (or ignominy) they achieved for their country. A person's judgment of others should be tempered by consideration that mere differences do not always mean that one opinion is more correct than the other. However, most of us are taught at an early age to distinguish right from wrong and there are certainly some situations when a person can and should make a judgment about others, rather than floundering in a boat of excessive tolerance upon a sea of indecision. For me (and for most people in societies that allow freedom of speach), cheating is wrong and the ends do not justify immoral means, especially in sports. ** I chose this example because even to this day, American sports fans, not to mention so-called media sports experts, remember the triumph over the Soviet hockey team as one of the proudest moments in sports history in the last half century; in fact, most Americans assume that game was the gold medal game, whereas it was only the semi-finals. There certainly are comparable or even better achievements by Olympic athletes from other countries, but I just can't think of any at this time.
Re: (no more) 2000 Olympic Women's Single Champion Northwestern should have a badminton club or team for you to join. There are sure to be several different badminton clubs and leagues in the Chicago area, also. Watch out for Chicago drivers - they're lunatics. I've been practically run off the road doing 75mph in the slow lane, when I was the slowest car on the highway.
The table has turned! Adel, isn't it a great feeling to get that thick packet from your future school? all those greeting letters! all those infos! the whole school is now eager to have you join them. You will miss home. But that's part of the experience. You'll also meet a lot of new friends while you are there. American universities do a very good job making new students feel at home and welcomed. There will be many orientation activities, dorm activities and so on. Many of these friends will end up being your best friends and along with that, you will find that they are the best support when you are feeling homesick, down, lonely, or just damn right frustrated with homework. not sure if they can be of much support if you are having badminton match withdrawl though. So don't be scared. Instead, treat it as a new chapter of your life, as you are going to a very good university and the future will be bright. and bring your rackets! if you still feel lonely, come visit us here in BC, you will feel at home again. incidentally, my ex-roomate from college will be visiting from Singapore this weekend, guess what i had him get for me?
Brett, I agree with you. Stereotyping is bad. we only see a few samples of people, and they certainly don't represent the population as a whole. it is true that France has not produced any great cyclists in recently history, even their best was caught with... erm.. never mind. he did have a great comeback the past Tour with a stage victory though.
Brett, I have not mentioned that you were not correct mentioning individual sports versus team sports. Look at badminton in Olympics, does it offer you a team event like Thomas/Uber cup or just only individual events. I am have not opined if the coach decision's is right or wrong or supportive or even if that happened at all. It did happen before with Chinese players (and not only) in badminton and also other individual sports. Here in North America, if you wish to be a top player in badminton you'll need to find a coach for yourself. You organize your life and pay everything from your own pocket (that is if you can afford a good coach here - not sure in US but Canada works this way). Back in China, players are selected by their ability since tender age, the government pays and supports everything from the beginning: coaching, studies, food, shelter, etc. Therefore difference in opinions are quite natural. High level competition does not relate with sportmanship or Olympic ideals. In my view they have objectives which will serve a specific purpose(s). Strategically and tactically speaking if the coach made a decision to allow a player with better probability to beat its opponent I do not see anything wrong. In ladies singles you only have 1 opportunity to grab that gold medal - as I said, 2nd is same as losing, so silver medal is not enough. And I believe the pressure that was on the technical staff, 2 Olympics and 2 failures - how do you explain that? I know that you do not appreciate football (aka soccer) but I am an unconditional supporter of that sport. It's another sport that I grew up with. Back in 1974, Germany (West) was one of the powerhouses. In their group they won their matches but in their last match they lost to a much weaker opponent. Since 2 teams are qualified to play further they qualified as 2nd team. Guess what: by qualifying as second team they avoided Netherlands and Brazil which were grouped in another pool. They had an easier task playing weaker teams and ultimately winning the World Cup that year. Would you call this cheating or strategic planning? As their coach confessed the loss was planned since they were already qualified for next round and purpose was to avoid other powerhouses. Concluding this from my part, I accept these things as natural in high level competition where winning is above everything - you may not agree. But if this really upsets you then forget about high level competition, go watch the kids play and there you will see the individuals really playing out of interest and love for the sport. That's what I do during the weekends, taking my kids for their football (soccer) games where they so much enjoy doing their best.
Adel, Congratulations on being accepted to a prestigious University. Your parents must be really proud of you. Cheers
Re: The table has turned! A final bit of college advice to follow up on Kwun's comments: I personally have noticed both in college and at grad school that there is an inclination for members of minority student groups or foreign student groups to cluster together excessively (ironically, several of these student groups complained of discrimination when their own self-segregation was the cause of their failure to integrate fully with the entire school community). I think that Kwun is right that you should rely on fellow Singaporians or other foreign students to help you through periods of homesickness. However, you should not sit just with Asian students in class, in the cafeteria, at social events, etc...., but you should also meet and become friends with a broad variety of students. (Americans are not as bad as we seem in the movies ). You will have a much better educational experience in college if you have a diverse group of friends and acquaintences.
I would call West Germany's 1974 World Cup win to be the result of strategic planning, rather than outright cheating, but I would still call it the result of an unethical practice. I think that any outside pressure on competitive athletes to give less than their best efforts in genuine competition is improper. I am making the assumption that the German coach told his regular starters to throw the game. I would think somewhat better of the coach if he had the team's second or third string players play the whole game with their best effort, and they lost because of the superior athletic abilities of the other team's first string squad. Even in that case, I think that the honor and respect of the German team would not be a great as if they had won outright against genuine competition.
Brett we are talking about humans and not machines. If they had to fight all the hard battles in a short period of time, injuries and also physical fitness might be affected. Some players are not replaceable and in big matches that difference counts. Experienced coaches will opt for the safest route. Don't they do the same in case of war, won't the generals opt for the 'less bad' scenario? And how in organizations do their 'business' decisions? If you followed international ladies badminton you should know that Yeh played in both 1992 and 1996 Olympics and in both she failed to win the title. From her past record she can do much better against fellow Chinese players - they always play together and probably know too well each other - and not so well when against opposition from outside. Gong on the other side had an excellent record against CM - I believe 7 to 1 having won the last 6 encounters. If in case both Chinese players went all out what are the probable scenarios - it might be a long match exausting both (and they played more games before reaching this point), the winner may have a mishap and injure herself during the game but still able to win, allow the opponent's coach study the exposed weaknesses not apparent when playing other country's players and adopt a suitable strategy, etc. Put yourself in the situation of the coach what will you do - ask the players to go all out and if things don't go well you will come out and face the consequences courageously? If you look at the Germany's 74 world cup as a case of strategic planning why can't you interpret this situation a similar case? In my opinion, winning is the objective for high level competitions, irrespective of team or individual sport. In German team case they tried to charter an easier way to attain their objective. In the actual badminton situation, if this really happened, the coach just chose the player with the higher possibility to take the only available ladies singles gold medal home. Any difference? Just a strategic decision. As I mentioned in my earlier post, high level sport is not really a suitable place to look for sport ethics or ideals. For the people involved in high level sports it's just for business reasons. How many are there because of passion for the game? It is highly probable that both of us have a stronger passion for the game than many of the players involved currently in the professional badminton circuit.
Re: The table has turned! Yes Brett, I totally agree with you. This was my main reason for not wanting to attend a college overflowing with S'poreans... too many of your kind and it can get very stifling. You're always obliged to be with them etc. etc. Despite my sporadic moments of fear and apprenhension, I'm looking forward to my next 3/4 years there (I may only have to do three years coz I have credits from the A-levels and I'm planning to atend summer school to save my parents a fortune) Don't worry Kwun, I will come here everyday to whine about not having any matches to watch (joking)... actually, I've already bribed someone to tape anything and everything that's available... oh yes, I'm planning to minor in Korean Language and Studies along with Political Science (if everything goes as planned) so I can translate all that badminton news for you =) This may seem strange but I've always wanted to learn Hangeul (nothing to do with "adorable" men's doubles players though)... at present, I can read the alphabet without understanding the meaning... plus I can say a few basic stuff. Thank you Viver... my parents are undergoing a mixture of excitement and stress... my dad, for instance, has been nagging at me to "get the bankdraft ready; cook, iron, and wash for the whole family everyday for the next 4 mths (I don't do this THAT often); find out where to get the cheapest laptops; get an Int'l Calling Card coz 'your mum will miss you like mad'; contact your seniors and ask them if it's cheaper to live off-campus; contact your uncle for the list of all his friends in Chicago; just do your best and do what you like; don't get too stressed out; pray everyday"... you get the picture. Anyway, I am so thankful to have very supportive parents and yes, all of you (hahaha)... the internet's a strange place, we may all be from different places, with different backgrounds and different lines of thought but all drawn together by this amazing thing called badminton (no wonder it's the greatest sport on the planet!)... sometimes I feel like I've known you ppl for a million years... ahem! And I s'ppose that's about as mushy as I can get... even my real-life friends don't get to hear me speak like that =)
I (hope I) can see both from yours and Brett's point of view and I must say that the two of you make equal sense, depending on the perspective of the individual. I won't take a stand coz I can't... ppl are free to say what they want, but when it comes to issues like this, I always sit on the fence which apart from getting my butt poked, is "the way of the loser", according to my younger bro who incidentally thinks the world of himself. I know what you mean when you say that being second is as bad as losing: as a matter of fact, I think it's worse coz you wind up standing on the second highest step of the podium when you were so close to being on the top. I can understand why Li Yongbo did what he did (if he did do it) but I cannot empathise... personal feelings for Ye aside, I was kind of disgusted at the way he openly admitted to "arranging the semifinals in a way that will be most beneficial to the Chinese team" (my own crappy translation from a Chinese news report)... but if it's only a matter of strategy (to him), there's no reason why he should hang his head in shame huh? On the other hand, I admit I like to think that athletes should give off their best whatever that best may be, but what the heck, throwing matches have become so common in order to avoid meeting stronger opponents in the next round blah blah blah... I s'ppose the diff is that when Germany threw their game and went on to win the World Cup , everybody in that team ended up with a gold medal around their necks, including the coach, and everyone got to kiss that trophy which looks like a distorted globe... but in the case of Gong and Ye, one ended up with a gold medal and the other a bronze (when she COULD have gotten the silver or the gold?). Again, at least to me, it's a matter of perspective... someone who takes the gold medal as the bottom line won't see any wrong in that... me, I'm more individual-oriented, so I tend to think that someone has been sacrificed, even if we're talking about the cruel world of top-level athletics whereby winning is the ultimatum. Wrt business, there were rumours that Ye got the same amt for winning the bronze as Gong did for taking the gold so...... I suppose I won't make a great politician but I hope I have a heart... of couse, it's not true that strategy-fixing ppl don't... it's just that theirs are in a different place from mine. Apologies for all my nonsensical theories... I'm not a whiz at online debating.
Re: The table has turned! Sorry, it's International Studies though I hope I can do sth related to the North-South conflict in Korea... but the language remains. Duh, why am I reporting my course preferences down here?
Having thought some more about your soccer analogy, I can't remember my train of thought yesterday and I am going to change my mind about my statement that the soccer coach's decision was just a strategy. I think your analogy was an extremely close one and I believe the German soccer coach acted just as unethically as the Chinese badminton coach. Sure the Chinese coach may have wanted his player to enter the gold medal match without having worn herself out in prior matches and without having divulged all of her playing strategies and tactics. But you would certainly have condemned Martin if she had been able to coerce the IOC into allowing her a special bye in the semifinal round. Isn't the Chinese coach attempting to obtain the same thing, the equivalent of a bye for his player, by manipulating and unethically lowering the standard of competition in Gong's semifinal match? If you take Gong's coach's approach to competition one step further, wouldn't he be justified by giving his team steroids or other illegal performance enhancers? If you go a second step, you could justify Tonya Harding's husband/coach's tactic of lessening Harding's competition via an iron bar to Nancy Kerrigan's knee. I view sports as having a higher standard of ethics than money making businesses, from the most basic children's development program to competition on the Olympic level. These days there are very few personal interactions in our world that still maintain any sense of honor and integrity and I think we reasonably should have higher expectations for sports than for the sort of tactics that are now common in business, politics, war, even, sadly, romantic relationships. I would hate to see a day when it becomes universally acceptable for Child A's parents to bribe a coach to let Child A on the team instead of the better and harder working athlete, Child B. The founder of the Olympics, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, certainly did not have winning-at-any-cost in mind when he organized the first modern Olympics over one hundred years ago. Instead, his goal was to achieve sufficient good will among the nations, via friendly athletic competition, to create peace and eliminate war. Was he a bit idealistic? Absolutely. But should we therefore allow the ethical levels of sports to resemble those in a post-apocolyptic Mad Max movie? Viver, would you rather win a tournament by beating all of the good players through your own efforts or by having the tournament organizer give you a soft field without any competition, so you can coast through to the finals? Fans also want to see a fair competition. If you saw the movie Pulp Fiction, Bruce Willis was not popular with the movie crowds because of his humor or style of dress - he was popular because he disobeyed his ganster boss and instead of throwing the boxing match to his opponent as demanded of him, he refused to be a patsy paid to take a fall and thus he beat the crap out of his favored opponent, winning fairly. Well, I think we have both spoken our minds on this issue and I guess it's time for us to agree to disagree.
Re: The table has turned! Adel, sound like you have a rich life experience awaiting for you. Hope that you pick up many other good things in life beside your degree(s). Badminton is just a seed of commonality that bring us together in this forum. With internet, a million years can feel like a mouse click away.
