2016 Rio Olympic Games : Day-9 (19th August) - WS & MD Gold Medal, WS Bronze Medal, MS Semifinals

[MeisterTim]

What is impressive about Marin is not only her peaking at the right time, but she is really demolishing everyone on her path on big occasions. She really reminds me of Lin Dan during his prime, she can just play an extra gear above everyone else when it matters.

 

[lodoss]

wait till CM retire then talk about her legacy. she's still young. with WS so competitive now, who can guarantee that CM will rule WS for the next decade? at least see if CM can defend her WS gold 4 yrs ago. if Zhang Ning did that when she's over 30, then CM should achieve it too, given the GOAT status bestow on her now.

 

[Rob3rt]

But she was exceptional last year and even Chen long was mediocre this year losing all his matches early. Her oncourt demeanour is not at all good. This definitely has an effect on opponents similar to archery where if you play against Korean players, you may notice the coach of Korea makes so much noise before the opponent plays. That will surely distract even good players.

I noticed that the Japanese MS coach does this, too. Everytime his players score a point he screams "haaa-soooo" like he is their biggest fan. I know why he does this, but I think this a little too much and should not be allowed.

 

[nizze]

wait till CM retire then talk about her legacy. she's still young. with WS so competitive now, who can guarantee that CM will rule WS for the next decade? at least see if CM can defend her WS gold 4 yrs ago. if Zhang Ning did that when she's over 30, then CM should achieve it too, given the GOAT status bestow on her now.

Agree. Should wait till she retires or at least towards the end of her career to decide if she deserves GOAT status. She is young, still have a number of playing years ahead. Now may not be a good time to decide if she is or is not.

 

[ssj100]

If you cycle your PEDs correctly, you ill peek very precisely. Pro bodybuilders/powerlifters/weight lifters do it with almost one-day precision. That would be an explanation for her mysterious winning streaks at one event and mediocrity for the other 11 months of the year. I'm not accusing her of that, mind you. It's just the Occam's razor explanation as to why an athlete from a country with no other world class player, no history in the sport and no recent new coach from a world class badminton nation peeks at the most important event of the year 3 years in a row, playing a very physical game that relies on overpowering and outspeeding the opponent.
Once again - it's not an accusation, or even a suggestion. Informing yourself about the possibilities and scope of doping leaves you a little jaded, though, and acquiring the help of a good pharmacist is easier than getting a world class coach, and will give you better results 100% of the time.

Personally I'd rather believe this sport is still clean and that she just has this uncanny ability to prepare incredibly well, and that the spanish coach is actually something of a mastermind that just has no other decent athlete to work with to show his aptitude.

Anything is possible I suppose. But you don't become World Number One by only playing well at one event and being mediocre for the other 11 months of the year. When was the last time WYH or WSX were World Number One? Clearly Marin has been consistently good and a level above even some of China's best throughout the year, for the last couple of years.

Another perspective of her achievements is to look at LCW - it seems like he's super consistent and forever World Number One, but he's never won a major. And he's 10 years older than Marin. Marin has already won 3 majors. Her ability to perform when it really matters shows that her peak ability (in times of greatest pressure) is currently second to none and shows the mark of a true champion. And this is another reason why I think she's the all time great already. People who think LCW is one of the all time greats can just re-read the above - that is, the ability to perform when it really matters (in times of greatest pressure) etc.

 

[renbo]

Results are of course important but way of playing is also to be considered. Marin is great because of her style. LCW, though a repeated silver medalist, is great also for his style.

 

[lodoss]

Anything is possible I suppose. But you don't become World Number One by only playing well at one event and being mediocre for the other 11 months of the year. When was the last time WYH or WSX were World Number One? Clearly Marin has been consistently good and a level above even some of China's best throughout the year, for the last couple of years.

Another perspective of her achievements is to look at LCW - it seems like he's super consistent and forever World Number One, but he's never won a major. And he's 10 years older than Marin. Marin has already won 3 majors. Her ability to perform when it really matters shows that her peak ability (in times of greatest pressure) is currently second to none and shows the mark of a true champion. And this is another reason why I think she's the all time great already. People who think LCW is one of the all time greats can just re-read the above - that is, the ability to perform when it really matters (in times of greatest pressure) etc.

what is the view of the pro players and coaches on lcw? did they considered him as one of the all time great player?
how did LD see lcw? a player who can't beat him at the WC and OG, or one who consistently push him to be better and now widely accepted as the GOAT?
how many players can consistenly maintain his status as one of the 2 best player in the world for 12 years? how many has the heart, courage, determination, ability, to reach 3 consecutive olympic final?
MS is game between 2 player. LD said LCW is one of the reason why his achievement is great, because LCW is a worthy opponent, one who push him to train harder and defend his OG in 2012, to still push his ageing body for the 2016 OG, even though he can simply retire in comfort as he has won everything.
who is LCW? he is a respected opponent and a great friend of LD. he may be a peanut here but that doesn't matter at all.

 

[ssj100]

I actually agree with all your points and implications. It's a funny thing in badminton isn't it? How it contrasts with tennis, and perhaps rightly so (I don't know?)? In tennis, you would never ever claim someone who has never won a major title as a "great". For example, there have been a few World Number One Women's singles players in recent times who have never won a major title - Caroline Wozniacki, Dinara Safina, and Jelena Jankovic. They have many other titles, but not a single major. They have reached multiple major finals. And no one in the tennis world would consider them as "great".

Now I suppose one could argue that LCW is a bit of an anomaly, and perhaps should be considered "great". Or perhaps the greatest MS player never to win a major? I'd buy that one. I don't think anyone else comes close to that (awkward) title. He's reached 7 major finals (6 if we take out the World Champs one he was stripped of for apparent doping), losing 4 times to LD and 3 times to CL. But he's won arguably the biggest non-major title three times (All England), been World Number One for several years, and I think has the most number of career titles in the history of MS (and probably also reached the most number of finals too). Such an anomaly though right? That he's never won a major. It might go down as the most anomalous fact in human sporting history. Can anyone else think of anything more anomalous? The "great" Snooker player Jimmy White reached 6 World Champs finals (it's incredible to even reach 1 in any career) but never came out a winner in any of them. I think LCW has eclipsed that by reaching 7 major finals and never coming out a winner in any of them.

 

[Nine Tailed Fox]

I actually agree with all your points and implications. It's a funny thing in badminton isn't it? How it contrasts with tennis, and perhaps rightly so (I don't know?)? In tennis, you would never ever claim someone who has never won a major title as a "great". For example, there have been a few World Number One Women's singles players in recent times who have never won a major title - Caroline Wozniacki, Dinara Safina, and Jelena Jankovic. They have many other titles, but not a single major. They have reached multiple major finals. And no one in the tennis world would consider them as "great".

Now I suppose one could argue that LCW is a bit of an anomaly, and perhaps should be considered "great". Or perhaps the greatest MS player never to win a major? I'd buy that one. I don't think anyone else comes close to that (awkward) title. He's reached 7 major finals (6 if we take out the World Champs one he was stripped of for apparent doping), losing 4 times to LD and 3 times to CL. But he's won arguably the biggest non-major title three times (All England), been World Number One for several years, and I think has the most number of career titles in the history of MS (and probably also reached the most number of finals too). Such an anomaly though right? That he's never won a major. It might go down as the most anomalous fact in human sporting history. Can anyone else think of anything more anomalous? The "great" Snooker player Jimmy White reached 6 World Champs finals (it's incredible to even reach 1 in any career) but never came out a winner in any of them. I think LCW has eclipsed that by reaching 7 major finals and never coming out a winner in any of them.

I think they should make All England bigger than a SSP.....act more classy(in Patriotic terms - National Anthem,flags etc etc,), increase Prize money and Ranking Points.

 

[Justin L]

I think they should make All England bigger than a SSP.....act more classy(in Patriotic terms - National Anthem,flags etc etc,), increase Prize money and Ranking Points.

Sounds a good idea, make the All England a special Superseries tournament stand out from the rest. Such a long tradition going back hundred over years, all the eventful history and past glories associated with many great players, really, it shouldn't be relegated to just another one of the 12 SS or 5 PSS titles.

I agree, give bigger prize money, more than any other SS/PSS, and, even more important, higher ranking points, a little more but still less than the WC/OG, the highest tier , understandably.

 

[Nine Tailed Fox]

Sounds a good idea, make the All England a special Superseries tournament stand out from the rest. Such a long tradition going back hundred over years, all the eventful history and past glories associated with many great players, really, it shouldn't be relegated to just another one of the 12 SS or 5 PSS titles.

I agree, give bigger prize money, more than any other SS/PSS, and, even more important, higher ranking points, a little more but still less than the WC/OG, the highest tier , understandably.

Yeah, All England Championship is the way forward.

Yonex All England SSP is not too impressive.

 

[Loh]

I feel that prize money must increase drastically to elevate any major tournament to a more respectable level.
So organisers must work very much harder!

 

[FeatherBlaster]

I beg to differ, London 2012 is stronger - Li Xuerui, Wang Yihan, Wang Xin, Saina Nehwal, Tine Baun, Juliane Schenk, Sung Ji Hyun, Bae Yeon Joo , and one or two others were all on top of their game, not to mention Pi Hongyan, Yao Jie, Sayaka Sato, Cheng Shao-chieh, and, if you like, the young Intanon R, Tai TY, and Marin herself (who lost to LXR).

Not that I have any opinion on this matter - just adding a fact here:

In 2012 OG, the single most difficult match LXW had on her way to victory, was the one against a very very young and talented girl from Spain... I think it was in the quarters.

Why are you all going cracy discussing GOAT for a player so young? It makes no sense. Clearly she has the potential to become GOAT, but clearly we have to see more to determine.

But I must admit, that it's fun to read people putting Marin down for the same kind of results that they argue makes LD great And Fortune's enthusiastic way of inventing arguments that support his point of view is as always impressive

 

[FeatherBlaster]

I still can't believe we'll be calling a Spanish girl the World and Olympic Badminton Champion for at least the next year or so. It's truly remarkable what she's achieved - as you say, for the last 3 consecutive years, she seems to have the ability to peak at the right time for the biggest titles. I really don't know how she's done it. Has she had any training outside of Spain etc? Like surely there must be some China/Indonesia/Korea/Denmark influence on her training? Anyone know?

Yeah. It's a Dane (Anders Thomsen) serving as one of the national coaches of Spain. (With more or less the task of taking care of Marin).

Just as it is for a lot of other European (and other) countries...

PG is in France now, and the list is long... Jonassen had England for 3 years. There's a Dane in Norway. One of my doubles partners has served as coach in Austria, Italy and Sweden. In Rio we saw a lot of Danes in the background!

Just like there's a lot of Chinese coaches working around the world. In Denmark too! My children have two Chinese coaches: Wenyan Li (former All England player for the China national team) and Lian Ying Zhang (probably the best known technical coach in Denmark, who has been working with all our top players for the last 20-25 years in the national training center).

I've even had coaches from Canada and Scotland myself back when I was active.
There's a lot of internationals who come to Denmark to practice and play more. Then they start working as coaches also, and they typically end up working as playing coaches for the clubs when their international careers are over.

My own club has a foreign playing coach, who besides training our players, boost the first team in the leagues.

This is seen in league clubs as far down as the 5th best division! A testament to the seriousness and strength of Danish badminton (given our country's small size, we're not just producing a few top players, we have tremendous depth - which is probably why we keep producing top players).

 

[FeatherBlaster]

Not that I have any opinion on this matter - just adding a fact here:

In 2012 OG, the single most difficult match LXW had on her way to victory, was the one against a very very young and talented girl from Spain... I think it was in the quarters.

Why are you all going cracy discussing GOAT for a player so young? It makes no sense. Clearly she has the potential to become GOAT, but clearly we have to see more to determine.

But I must admit, that it's fun to read people putting Marin down for the same kind of results that they argue makes LD great And Fortune's enthusiastic way of inventing arguments that support his point of view is as always impressive

@JustinL
The last part of my post was not aimed at you. Only the OG2012 comment!

 

[FeatherBlaster]

... and no recent new coach from a world class badminton nation...

See my last post (#2034)

Anders Thomsen who you will see around Marin 10 hours each day, including court side coaching when she plays, is from Denmark.

I like to consider Denmark a world class badminton nation

If I get time this evening, I'll do a post about some of the revolutionary training methods that the Danish national team has deployed. I know that Marin used similar methods for some periods in her training. I don't know if all countries are doing it, but my impression is that it's relatively few!

 

[**KZ**]

Yeah. It's a Dane (Anders Thomsen) serving as one of the national coaches of Spain. (With more or less the task of taking care of Marin).

Just as it is for a lot of other European (and other) countries...

PG is in France now, and the list is long... Jonassen had England for 3 years. There's a Dane in Norway. One of my doubles partners has served as coach in Austria, Italy and Sweden. In Rio we saw a lot of Danes in the background!

Just like there's a lot of Chinese coaches working around the world. In Denmark too! My children have two Chinese coaches: Wenyan Li (former All England player for the China national team) and Lian Ying Zhang (probably the best known technical coach in Denmark, who has been working with all our too players for the last 20-25 years in the national training center).

I've even had coaches from Canada and Scotland myself back when I was active.
There's a lot of internationals who come to Denmark to practice and play more. Then they start working as coaches also, and they typically end up working as playing coaches for the clubs when their international careers are over.

My own club has a foreign playing coach, who besides training our players, boost the first team in the leagues.

This is seen in league clubs as far down as the 5th best division! A testament to the seriousness and strength of Danish badminton (given our country's small size, we're not just producing a few top players, we have tremendous depth - which is probably why we keep producing top players).

It is interesting how the Danish system works. I often wonder why Denmark and not the other Scandinavian countries like Sweden? Sweden at one point produced good players but everything just stopped.

 

[SolsticeOfLight]

Culture, I guess?

If you have top level players, you can generate interest and can therefore create new top level players.

If you don't have those players, interest and trust in your system wanes, making it harder to generate new top level players.

 

[ssj100]

See my last post (#2034)

Anders Thomsen who you will see around Marin 10 hours each day, including court side coaching when she plays, is from Denmark.

I like to consider Denmark a world class badminton nation

If I get time this evening, I'll do a post about some of the revolutionary training methods that the Danish national team has deployed. I know that Marin used similar methods for some periods in her training. I don't know if all countries are doing it, but my impression is that it's relatively few!

Even so, why then do we not see great WS players from Denmark's own backyard in this current era? Marin is an anomaly.

 

[FeatherBlaster]

Even so, why then do we not see great WS players from Denmark's own backyard in this current era? Marin is an anomaly.

All players that wins the world championship or olympics are anomalies I suppose...

You need two things:

1) To spot the young player with the right talent.
2) To give that player the needed help, coaching and opportunities to develop their skill.

Regarding 1), it's a matter of screening enough players, thus it become a game of numbers - the more players who play, the more raw talents you'll come by. In Spain there are not so many players, but it's not completely in the dark either. The federation is fairly new (compared to the "big four" in European badminton, Germany, France, England and Denmark), but they are gaining traction and now have 8000+ registered club players. Still only a 10th of Denmark, but not as bad as many other countries (Poland, Norway, etc.).

Regarding 2), it's a matter of tradition, knowledge and resources. Here Carolina Marin has been helped the best possible way. She's won numerous Spanish championships (including senior championships as a junior), and they fairly quickly organized a "Team Marin" around her, hiring in help as needed. She probably have had better surroundings in terms of resources, etc than most other big badminton countries top players.

All in all, her performance at this young age is nothing short of fantastic. And the ceiling seems to be high, in terms of what she can continue to achieve. It's highly unusual to see such talent from a country like Spain, but they have really taken her talent serious and pulled in the needed help.

-----

When she was injured, she trained full time with her coaching team, trying to improve tactics, strategy and reading opponents. They had a projector setup in the arena, analyzed her opponents (thoroughly) and quizzed her towards shot selection, prediction, tactics, etc. She practiced and practiced (while injured remember) in order to learn "by reflex" where and how to play, in tough situations against her most fierce competitors.

I've heard a lot of players and coaches say, that other athletes (including those from other sports) could learn from Marin's work ethics and structured approach. It's not all just luck and coincidence you know.