2016 Rio Olympic Games : Day-9 (19th August) - WS & MD Gold Medal, WS Bronze Medal, MS Semifinals

[ssj100]

Like many people, Marin isn't close to being my favorite player. Her poor court antics, attitude and screaming totally turn me off as a badminton fan. However, there is no arguing she is currently the best WS player. Her achievement cannot be denied. However, to gain GOAT status, IMHO we need to see her maintaining her level of performance for a little more. She is definitely on her way there though.

Completely respect your opinion, and in a sense, I (almost) completely agree. I think every badminton fan must agree (no matter how much one hates her) that she is at least "definitely on her way" to attaining GOAT status. For me, she's already reached there, for the various reasons I've illustrated. And look, an opinion can change in a minute, an hour, or years - for subjective feelings such as this, it doesn't mean someone was right or wrong - that's why it's an opinion! It's like saying you were wrong that you liked Sushi as a child, since you don't like it now as an adult!

 

[ssj100]

'artificial and Forced'....Hmm are we talking about the lady who ruled the Dark era of commentary.

Nice to see you still around. Thought you said you were gone after LD lost. And glad I'm still around too - LCW still not a single major title!

 

[kwun]

Completely respect your opinion, and in a sense, I (almost) completely agree. I think every badminton fan must agree (no matter how much one hates her) that she is at least "definitely on her way" to attaining GOAT status. For me, she's already reached there, for the various reasons I've illustrated. And look, an opinion can change in a minute, an hour, or years - for subjective feelings such as this, it doesn't mean someone was right or wrong - that's why it's an opinion! It's like saying you were wrong that you liked Sushi as a child, since you don't like it now as an adult!

right. i respect what you say too, and it is alright to have different opinions.

let me elaborate on why I said that.

the reason I was a bit conservative on granting GOAT is that GOAT is really a big deal. "AT" is even bigger than a WC title, bigger than Olympics Gold. AT means better than EVERYONE that came before them at that point in time.

We have seen many popping stars in badminton, Ji Xinpeng, and even Li Xuerui has been at the top of the world but not able to consistently maintain their supremacy and the performance never came back.

Lin Dan can be considered GOAT, since at his peak, he has consistently taken all the big titles, WC/AE/SS titles on many occasions, throughout a period of many years, and winning 2 OG while he was at it. Ge Fei / Gu Jun can be considered GOAT, even more so than Lin Dan as they took 2 OG and only losing once the 4 years in between. and for some events, like MD, where there are so many pairs with similar strength, it is even hard to say who, if there is a GOAT at all.

so therefore I'd like to keep observing for a little more and not jump into conclusion too quickly.

 

[kwun]

and btw, I think Zhang Ning is a better candidate for GOAT than anyone else in the recent era. 2 OG, WC, and numerous title in a time where there are lots of competition.

 

[ssj100]

Yes, I suspect for most people, they'd want to see Super Marin maintain her World number one ranking (most of the time), win at least one more World Champs and take out the Tokyo Olympics 2020 Gold Medal before declaring her the GOAT. And that's understandable. Some others would want her to take out the 2024 Gold Medal too, along with every single World Champs from now until then.

For me, coming from her background (and let's say her genetics?) makes her an anomaly. Just incredible achievements. Anyone seen The Matrix hehe?

I also truly believe that Marin has taken WS to the next level. I think her speed and physicality are beyond her time. I also disliked her initially, and couldn't believe that "little old Spain" was stomping all over "Asian pride" or whatever you want to call it. But then I couldn't deny not just what she has achieved, but how she has achieved it (taking WS to the next level etc).

 

[nizze]

whats up if you are coming from non badm PH ?

as long as you have neg H2H / less title or major title, worst win-lose records against me, then no way you are the GOAT lol

Hmmm... in this case, will you consider CY/FHF GOAT? They have a negative h2h against LYD/JJS leh.

But they were Olympics gold medalists, WC champions,consistent top world ranking , won countless SS titles, on the thomas and surdiman cup winning team... Correct me if i am wrong but going by your definitions, they are not qualified to be GOAT?

 

[SibugiChai]

Yes, I suspect for most people, they'd want to see Super Marin maintain her World number one ranking (most of the time), win at least one more World Champs and take out the Tokyo Olympics 2020 Gold Medal before declaring her the GOAT. And that's understandable. Some others would want her to take out the 2024 Gold Medal too, along with every single World Champs from now until then.

For me, coming from her background (and let's say her genetics?) makes her an anomaly. Just incredible achievements. Anyone seen The Matrix hehe?

I also truly believe that Marin has taken WS to the next level. I think her speed and physicality are beyond her time. I also disliked her initially, and couldn't believe that "little old Spain" was stomping all over "Asian pride" or whatever you want to call it. But then I couldn't deny not just what she has achieved, but how she has achieved it (taking WS to the next level etc).

at this moment, I think MARIN is just behind Zhang Nin as GOAT, one more Olympic title Marin will be GOAT.

 

[lodoss]

I see.

But, you know, if someone mention about Yang Yang, people will remember Morten.
If someone mention about Park Jo Bong, I will remember Li Yong Bo.
If someone mention about Hoyer Larsen, I will remember about Dong Jiong..
Nobody will forget about LYD or Setiawan if people mention about CY/FHF achievement.

You know, there is fierce competition in their era. And it stayed in public memory. No need to googling it.

The fact that @Fortune ask me to google LLW or HAP competitor show that it must be one of that "BORING" era that LLW and HAP played.

boring? i don't know and can't comment as i was still a kid and didn't follow badminton.

i believe only people who have watched badminton during the days of LLW or HAP can give a fair comment on how competitive it is.

who knows, 30 years later, some one might comment that LD and LCW era is boring as its either LD or LCW winning.

similar in NBA, fans in the era of Lebron James's dominance have doubts on the greatness of Michael Jordan (MJ's opponents are weak, compare to Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, etc etc). while those who watched NBA during MJ's heyday continue to say he's still the GOAT, denying many Hall of Fame players from winning even one ring (just ask Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley).

just sit back and enjoy their matches. it is difficult and not fair to judge players from different era.

 

[Fortune]

Phew, I'm not a fan of "name calling", but somewhat relieved to see someone else posting on this issue hehe.

For me, there's nothing else that I need to post in reply to him, as it's already posted. I believe my arguments are sound (although very controversial, because that's the nature of GOAT debates) and based on a combination of facts to formulate an opinion. I've already demonstrated the obvious fallacies in some of his arguments - even he agrees and admits that the number of titles won (alone) is not a reflection of who is the GOAT, and therefore he's absolutely contradicted himself by trying to enforce the 2 vs 1 number argument (moreover, he appears to be trying to use this as some sort of "mathematical" "proof" that someone is the GOAT, and we all know that's not possible - it's as fruitless as trying to mathematically prove that God exists or doesn't exist).

no, I'm not saying LCW vs LD title = 64 - 62.
never.

I think it is you that contradicting yourself by saying ZN / ZYL is not the GOAT bcoz neg H2H with JFN / CP.

when I say, Marin has neg H2H to 18 / 19 WS player, therefore she is absolutely not the GOAT, you have nothing to respond...hahaha

Most people would agree that it's not just the number of titles won (which is one of many important factors, but probably not even the most important) that influences who is the GOAT.

I said it before, 1 or 2 years ago, and I already said it again in this thread, 5 - 10 pages before, there are several factor to be GOAT :

- major titles
-total titles
-H2H
-world #1
-win - lose record
-world record

all of this factor combined, and no way Marin os the GOAT

He's already agreed with me on this (perhaps unknowingly?), as he's given other "facts" to support his opinion on the 64 vs 62 issue - that is, because LD wasn't able to compete in the CWG, means LCW's titles there should be stripped.

for sure, you can only count the title that your rival could participate.

if TH asks to LD, why you never win SEA Games title, do you think it is possible ?

if you still want to count CWG, could I count Thomas / Sudirman / Asian Games team title which is for sure make LD ahead by 10 titles in total ?

The hilarious thing is that this in itself is fallacious - if we go by that logic, he would have to concede that we should only count the titles won where both LCW and LD participated in.

are you sure you only want to count this ?
as LD vs LCW H2H is sth like 25 - 9, this is a very good start for LD...so do you think you can win in this aspect ?

For example, we should strip LD of his Brazil Open title, because LCW never played there. And as stated above, even if we granted the stripping of LCW's 2 CWG Golds, it would still put LCW's title count as equal to LD. And if we're only going by those numbers (which is what his fallacious argument is doing), this would mean LCW = LD in terms of GOAT status.

wow, I don't believe that I must explain this :

-Brazil GP 2015 should count, bcoz LCW also can play in there, but choose to absent.
-CWG, even if LD wants to take part, he can't played.

And here he again concedes that it's not just one fact that influences who is the GOAT, as he goes on to bring up another fact - LCW has played more games than LD, and therefore LD's number of titles is more impressive etc. And this line of logic (he's conceded to) actually promotes how I formulated my opinion of Super Marin - it's based on several facts (not just one).

It's all absolutely fallacious, and reassures me that he's just trying to be funny perhaps hehe.

no, I'm always consistent, that's why it's me who can make you run and hide here and there

 

[Fortune]

Hmmm... in this case, will you consider CY/FHF GOAT? They have a negative h2h against LYD/JJS leh.

But they were Olympics gold medalists, WC champions,consistent top world ranking , won countless SS titles, on the thomas and surdiman cup winning team... Correct me if i am wrong but going by your definitions, they are not qualified to be GOAT?

no, I'm not saying like that, and never say it.

especially Fu Haifeng who is the only male MD to win 2 OLY gold, can you find my post that say FHF is the greatest male MD player ?

I can guarantee you can't find that post


even I confuse to say, who is greater between Zhang Jun / Gao Ling or Kim Dong Moon / Ra Kyung Min, bcoz ZJ / GL is the 2 times OLY gold in XD, include in 2004 Athens.

but their H2H is really bad especially during 2004 OLY qualification.


I always consistent with my post.
there are 5 or 6 factors to determine who is the GOAT. you can find it in post 1989.


the one who is inconsistent is @ssj100.

when major title is good, then use this.
if H2H is good, then use H2H.
but when I say Marin has major title but has really bad H2H to 18 WS, he / she has nothing to say except run here and there


for me, MD GOAT is very difficult to say, bcoz in my opinion, there are several good candidates :

Ricky / Rexy
JJS / LYD
CY / FHF
Kido / Hendra
Zhang Nan / FHF
Ahsan / Hendra
YYS / LYD
Candra Wijaya / Tony G
Candra Wijaya / Sigit Budiarto


combine all the factors, then their result is pretty the same...not as cleas as WS GOAT Li Lingwei who has many world records, unlike Marin who only has once or even nothing


edit : H2H between
Zhang / Gao vs Kim / Ra = 3 - 10

so according to you, who is greater ?

only count major title alone just like @ssj100 ?

 

[ssj100]

The saddest thing is perhaps the fact that he thinks he's right hehe. The more he posts about it, trying to defend his reasoning, the more embarrassing it gets actually!

 

[ssj100]

at this moment, I think MARIN is just behind Zhang Nin as GOAT, one more Olympic title Marin will be GOAT.

Interesting. Is that because she'd have the same number of Olympic Golds as Zhang Nin, but more World Champs? If so, you're putting the Olympics very high, which I suppose is fair enough.

 

[Fortune]

Susi is great because at her time she beat another great player named Bang so hyun and ye zhao ying,the future Oly Gold and 2 times WC winners.

then Li Lingwei is the greatest bcoz she defeated future OLY and World Champion plus winner of 15 or 20 grand prix title, Susi Susanti.

clear ?

plus Tang Jiuhong also, future world champion.

Susi = 7 years younger than LLW
LLW : double duty and play 3 events in a row, Susi only 2, and focus in WS only.

Result : LLW > Susi...easier than her first victory in Japan open 1989

Marin is great because she beat Oly gold winner.

Lin Dan is great because he beat taufik the Oly and WC winners.

in my opinion you only become a great athlete by defeating another great athlete. YOU ARE MEASURED BY WHO YOUR OPPONENT ARE !

how do you know Marin opponent is great ?

if they are really great, how come WYH who almost 29 still as #2 in the world, while WYH at 20 y.o., still ranked below than the veteran 33 y.o. Zhang Ning ?

Now you tell me who is opponent of LLW and HAP in their era ??

Tang Jiuhong, Huang Hua, Bang So Hyun Susi Susanti, and the others.

check 1988 Uber Cup squad.
where is TJH and Huang Hua ?
not selected.
why ? bcoz the future world champion is not good enough compare to other CHN WS, even for 4th WS position

 

[ssj100]

Also it's quite simple to respond to the negative H2H issue - I simply value the fact that Super Marin would not have the culture/training/opportunities to be "great" like ZN/ZYL (therefore implying Marin is more talented etc) - this is very subjective, and you can't prove or disprove it - it's an opinion. Also, as I said, Marin has brought WS to another level more so than anything I've seen in recent badminton history - again, can't be proved or disproved. It's fine to claim ZN/ZYL as the GOAT - not saying anyone is wrong by making such a claim, because again, it's just an opinion.

To be honest, I don't know XD history very well to make accurate comments on who should be GOAT. I'm just learning now that Frank Devlin won 6 World Champs MS, 7 World Champs MD, and 5 World Champs XD, while George Thomas won 4 World Champs MS, 9 World Champs MD, and 8 World Champs XD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Devlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_George_Thomas,_7th_Baronet
(Note that All England = World Champs back then)

So could be argued that George Thomas and his partner are the GOAT in XD, and also in MD too, with Frank Devlin a close second. But again, I don't know the level of competition etc back then well enough. But if someone were to argue that George Thomas is the GOAT in badminton in any discipline, I'd respect that opinion, and not use fallacious arguments hehe. Heck, after all, the Thomas Cup is named after George Thomas!

 

[Fortune]

The saddest thing is perhaps the fact that he thinks he's right hehe. The more he posts about it, trying to defend his reasoning, the more embarrassing it gets actually!

count title only when both player (LD and LCW) play the same event ?

wanna count, @ssj100 ?

and who is greater, ZJ / GL or Kim / Ra ?
what about ZN / ZYL vs JFN / CP ?
and what about WYH vs Marin ?
Inthanon vs Marin ?
Sun Yu vs Marin ?

answer it.

 

[super-g]

I said it before, 1 or 2 years ago, and I already said it again in this thread, 5 - 10 pages before, there are several factor to be GOAT :

- major titles
-total titles
-H2H
-world #1
-win - lose record
-world record

all of this factor combined, and no way Marin os the GOAT

The problem with this list is that it is only your opinion, not a fact. Some people really think their opinions are facts. Many people would only count world championships and olympics, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[ssj100]

I think you need to re-read the point I was trying to make with your 2 vs 1 argument mate hehe. You appear to have completely missed the point!

 

[ssj100]

The problem with this list is that it is only your opinion, not a fact. Some people really think their opinions are facts. Many people would only count world championships and olympics, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Was just about to post something like that. He's arguing as if he's got mathematical proof for all his opinions, and that he's the only one that's right!

 

[Fortune]

Also it's quite simple to respond to the negative H2H issue - I simply value the fact that Super Marin would not have the culture/training/opportunities to be "great" like ZN/ZYL (therefore implying Marin is more talented etc) - this is very subjective, and you can't prove or disprove it - it's an opinion.

I'm sure player from Africa has worst facilities than Marin from Spain.
so if she has neg H2H vs Marin, then it is normal bcoz her country not as rich as spain, no badm depth, no badm tradition, not enough facilities, even perhaps no callibre coach...yeah, this is normal, but we can say the girl from Africa is greater than Marin by using super silly analogy by @ssj100

Also, as I said, Marin has brought WS to another level more so than anything I've seen in recent badminton history - again, can't be proved or disproved. It's fine to claim ZN/ZYL as the GOAT - not saying anyone is wrong by making such a claim, because again, it's just an opinion.

brought in to the new level
yeah that's right.

from A class performance during LLW era, by winning WC and world #1 in WS and WD, becoming E or even F class performance in Marin's era by losing to Michele Li from Canada in WS at Sudirman Cup level 2 competition

To be honest, I don't know XD history very well to make accurate comments on who should be GOAT. I'm just learning now that Frank Devlin won 6 World Champs MS, 7 World Champs MD, and 5 World Champs XD, while George Thomas won 4 World Champs MS, 9 World Champs MD, and 8 World Champs XD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Devlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_George_Thomas,_7th_Baronet
(Note that All England = World Champs back then)

So could be argued that George Thomas and his partner are the GOAT in XD, and also in MD too, with Frank Devlin a close second. But again, I don't know the level of competition etc back then well enough. But if someone were to argue that George Thomas is the GOAT in badminton in any discipline, I'd respect that opinion, and not use fallacious arguments hehe. Heck, after all, the Thomas Cup is named after George Thomas!

Sir George Thomas active player was during 1910 - 1930.

IBF was formed in 1934.

so, how we count this when his title is not in IBF calendar ?

 

[Fortune]

Was just about to post something like that. He's arguing as if he's got mathematical proof for all his opinions, and that he's the only one that's right!

using your analogy, I'm asking you who is greater :
Marin or WYH ?
Marin or Inthanon ?
Zhang / Gao or Kim / Ra ?
Zhang / Zhao or JFN / CP ?

then why you find it so difficult to answer ?