When Is Shuttle In?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by coryprice, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    taneepak, your post is getting less and less objective and logicial with time. Your vendetta is backfiring.

    when any shuttle is in a tumbling state of motion, the velocity is less than 3 mph, the skirt can not collapse at those velocity.

    At velocity of 120+ mph when the plastic skirt start collapsing, the skirt is compressed, therefore, when struck landing on the court floor at an angle, the folded skirt is much much harder to touch the line before the cork, allowing the cork to touch the line even at smaller angle than a feather shuttle.

    In both scenario, extreme low and high velocity, your statement is catergorically false.
     
  2. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Thanks for the real-life example. So the feathers could land first on the line and be counted 'in' under very special circumstances like yours! ;)
     
  3. coryprice

    coryprice Regular Member

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    Hi Cooler,

    I'm thinking this was half kidding maybe, but I think you really took it the logical level...more than taneepak! ;)
     
  4. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Actually it was not intended as a reply. I am sure you know what I mean; and it works everytime.:D
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    yep, taneepak proven wrong against by smashmaster. I know smashmaster uses feathers.
     
  6. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    It's simple: you take the first point of contact of the shuttle with the ground (cork or feathers, but feathers are unlikely).

    Otherwise, it can sometimes land out, before spinning around and touching the line with the feathers. :p
     
  7. Erik L.

    Erik L. Regular Member

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    I don't know if it is possible for a shuttle to land with feathers on the ground first.
    Basically it doen't matter. As soon as a shuttle hits the floor, play is dead and what happens after that is not relevant. The only thing that matters is where (any part of) the shuttle hits de floor first. That is the only criterium by which it is determined whether a shuttle is "in" or "out".
     
  8. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    Erik is as usual quite right if any part of the feathers touches any part of the line then the shuttle is deemed to be in. This means both feathers and the base.

    It doesn't have to be a % of the base is on the line it means any part.

    I am an International Line Judge or ITO asw we are referred to by BWF and if the ITO is unsighted then they should cross their hand in front of their eyes signalling they are unsighted.

    The Umpire may call the decision if they clearly saw it either in or out. Otherwise they are instructed to play a let.

    It is the same in regards to over ruling a line judge they are instructed to do so only if they clearly see a mistake.
     
  9. Angel-a

    Angel-a Regular Member

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    Pardon me? Erik? Right?
     
  10. coryprice

    coryprice Regular Member

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    Hi Woody,

    Thanks for the clarification from the perspective of someone who has to judge a shuttle in or out under the criteria of the IBF.

    I still find it amusing how because of technology it's causing us to look at the sport like it's under a microscope.

    Cheers,
    Cory
     
  11. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The shuttle always rights itself and it is unlikely that it will land on the floor feathers first. Even net tumbles that roll over the net always lands on the floor base first. The only situation I can imagine that feathers might touch the floor first is when the feathers are gone, making the shuttle unstable.
     
  12. coryprice

    coryprice Regular Member

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    My thoughts are by no means based on true physics laws, but in my experience practicing with pretty shabby feather shuttles, they are even less likely to land feather first, being that the ratio of the weight between the head and the feathers is even more towards the head.

    So it seems the rule is that any part of the shuttle counts as in if it touches the line at all, but that the likelihood of it being anything other than the cork is slim to none...
     
  13. Karakalkat

    Karakalkat Regular Member

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    If one looks at the angle of the feathers to the cork one can see that it is physically impossible for the shuttle feather to touch the line (on smash) first...the cork would have to be at a slightly upward angle for the feather to touch first which it would not be on a hard smash...My line judge friend said the same as you....the feather touches the line it is in but he has never seen that happen...you may perceive the feather as touching first but in reality it can not because of the angle of the feathers to the cork...the same thing if a racket hits the feathers it is a hit and play is dead....it is all one shuttlecock...
     
  14. hiroisuke

    hiroisuke Regular Member

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    Gollum's suggestion seems the easiest, both to explain and judge.

    Simple and clean.
     
  15. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Badminton Law 13.3.1

    Which reads:

    It shall be a 'fault', if in play, the shuttle "lands outside the boundaries of the court (i.e. not on or within the boundary lines).

    I was in discussion with Woody who pointed out the above section of the Badminton Laws to me.

    Although the law does not specify which part of the shuttle, whether the cork or the feathers, must land first, it must be taken to mean "any part of the shuttle" including the feathers.

    We have tried to reason whether it is at all possible for the feathers to land first before the cork. Under normal circumstances the cork would land first but as experienced by smash master, in very, very rare incidents like the one he has described, the feathers could land first.

    Now if we look at another related law on a "fault" concerning the shuttle which "touches the person or dress of a player", then it is conceivable that the feathers could touch the the player or his clothing first and not necessary the cork.

    This then confirms that if the feathers of a shuttle land on the line, it is considered "in". :)
     
    #35 Loh, Aug 25, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
  16. Karakalkat

    Karakalkat Regular Member

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    I get the feeling that line judges use the cork because it is almost impossible for the feathers to hit first...again the angle of the feathers to the cork dismisses any chance of the feathers hitting the line first except on tumbling shuttle...if you drop a shuttle from the bottom of the net feathers first it will land feathers first...but no matter how hard we tried to make the shuttle tumble from being hit we could not make it come close to landing feathers first...we broke 6 shuttles trying to make them land wrong by hitting the feathers first....it was impossible to do...
    Still I guess anything is possible....
     
  17. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Even dropping the shuttle with the feathers down from the bottom of the net will not see the feathers touching the floor first. The net is 1,550mm high from the floor and the bottom of the net is 795mm from the floor. The shuttle when dropped feathers down, even from a very low height of 400mm from the floor, will touch the floor with the base/cork first. Only when dropped below 350mm feathers first will the feathers touch the floor first.
    You can try to test it out yourself with a feather shuttle and a tape.
     
  18. Karakalkat

    Karakalkat Regular Member

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    I held the shuttle by the cork and dropped it from the bottom of the net and in all drops the shuttle lands on the feathers first..only from higher up on the net will it hit cork first...again it points out how hard it is to hit feathers first...
     
  19. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    A good feather shuttlecock should have very fast recovery in its turn-over. If it doesn't correct itself for the cork to touch the floor first when dropped feathers-down from the bottom of the net then that shuttle has poor recovery, which by the way is also unique to plastic shuttles.
    The net is 1,550mm high from the floor and its depth is 760mm, leaving the space below the net at about 795mm. You can try to do some drop tests at home from this 795mm height and the feather shuttle should recover completely every time.
     
  20. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    People

    You are getting to hung up on wheher it is the base or the feathers which touch the floor first.

    IT DOES NOT MATTER, THE SHUTTLE IS IN IF ANY PART OF THE SHUTTLE LANDS ON THE LINES.

    99% of matchs played around the world probably do not have line judges to call it one way or the other.
     

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