Victor DENMARK Open 2021 : R/32 to Final (19-24 October)

@Justin L

He isn't flogging a dead horse. He is responding to you trying to cover SYQ and making what he did a normal matter. It wasn't normal. It was mega, ultra and hyper low!

Also, as I said - even without being tired Momota made those misjudgement - he has his reasons - but it wasn't due to being tired. You can think whatever you want. But if you have the least bit of not being biased you will see.
 
Quentin11 said:
@Justin L

He isn't flogging a dead horse. He is responding to you trying to cover SYQ and making what he did a normal matter. It wasn't normal. It was mega, ultra and hyper low!

Also, as I said - even without being tired Momota made those misjudgement - he has his reasons - but it wasn't due to being tired. You can think whatever you want. But if you have the least bit of not being biased you will see.
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There you go again, "mega, ultra and hyper low!", hitting a man when he's down again and again, and doubling up and tripling up.

Come on , you know jolly well how disappointed and critical I was with SYQ (go read all my related posts here and in SYQ's thread - you'd be surprised what you honestly finds there, if you cared to). Even my nuanced replies aren't difficult to understand, misreading, misunderstanding, and making allegations of bias and cover-up are the result of superficial and careless reading.

Otherwise, all this toing and froing here with you guys are meaningless, fruitless, unconstructive quarrels, fighting and arguing - just a lot of hot air that misses the real point, an exercise in futility.

Enough. Let's not waste each other's time. Look forward, not backward.

Men's Singles is in exciting times, Viktor Axelsen has just emerged as the hotshot player everyone wants to beat. I'm curious to know how long he can rule before someone or other can seriously rival him, though it's too early to say he might be dominant for a while, certainly not the way LD and LCW once were.
 
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Justin L said:
Read my relevant posts in the SYQ thread. Don't assumed you where understand I stand.

Anyway, there's no need to flog a dead horse.
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It's not flogging a dead horse - that would be the case if I criticized SYQ on my own, without prompting. You tried to excuse his behaviour and implicitly likened it to Christie's, which I very strongly disagree with - there's nothing similar to those situations. That's not flogging a dead horse, that's responding to a disingenuous, false comparison.
And now that it's apparent everyone disagrees with your stated sentiment, you want to put it in the past and pretend like we'd been sitting here talking about SYQ the entire time? That's bonkers.
Anyway, I agree with letting bygones be bygones, but I'll respond every single time you try and throw any other injured player (who retires from a match in a normal fashion, as Christie did) into the same pot as SYQ and his spiteful retirement on match point.
 
kurako said:
Tired he was, and he certainly does not have the stamina or injection of pace that he had in 2019. Nevertheless, Momota himself explains his loss as follows (Source: Badminton Spirit):

In the second game, although I felt that there was somewhat of a sideways drift, the shuttles didn't fly as far as expected. I believe that the misjudgements made here were the cause of my defeat.
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If we take out the break filled ‘13 WC final, this is the longest MS match played in the new scoring system. Being an unexplored territory in terms of match duration, what makes you say that KM of 19’s match fitness would have come guns blazing??


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mohans said:
If we take out the break filled ‘13 WC final, this is the longest MS match played in the new scoring system. Being an unexplored territory in terms of match duration, what makes you say that KM of 19’s match fitness would have come guns blazing??


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Well we all know that Momota 2019 to start with wouldn't make that many unforced errors, has much better shot quality, has better attacks, did not make that many misjudgements, controlled the net a lot better, was using neutralising shots, had better footwork and one of his most redeeming qualities is upping his pace in the 3rd game after tiring the opponent in 1st and 2nd.

For sure Momota 2019 vs Axelsen 2021 would be a bit more tightly contested. But Momota 2021 is still far far far from Momota 2019 or 2018 for that matter.
 
mohans said:
If we take out the break filled ‘13 WC final, this is the longest MS match played in the new scoring system. Being an unexplored territory in terms of match duration, what makes you say that KM of 19’s match fitness would have come guns blazing??


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Sorry, but that point is moot. Had Momota's match fitness been of a 2019 standard, then this match would have been over in two games. ;)
 
LenaicM said:
2019 is behind us, the rest is only speculations or personal opinions from all sides. Fact is, the name on this week's trophy is Axelsen.

Let's see who will write his name on the next trophies though.
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Don't worry; nobody is taking Axelsen's achievement at Odense away from him. It was a well-deserved win. But you seem a little eager in wanting to clean the slate for him.

2019 may be behind us, but one shouldn't dismiss a player's previous achievements so readily. Whatever comes after those achievements, be it an accident, illness, injury, or old-age, ... does not diminish them. And that applies to all players, not just Momota.
 
If Axelson can peak at 27...
Momota can come back and get back his fitness!!!

But with such tight schedule ... ... I'm not hopeful, at least not in the French Open
 
hybisme said:
If Axelson can peak at 27...
Momota can come back and get back his fitness!!!

But with such tight schedule ... ... I'm not hopeful, at least not in the French Open
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I think the tight schedule won't be much of an issue for Momota, it doesn't seem like he needs more training time away from competition, but rather more competition - similar to when he played himself back up the ranks coming back from his ban. I think his fitness is not the main issue and he won't get much better without actually competing - if only to build up his confidence again by winning matches (or ideally, tournaments :D).
The tight schedule is probably more of an issue for Axelsen, historically he hasn't fared super well with that and benefitted from training breaks more than others
 
Quentin11 said:
@Justin L

He isn't flogging a dead horse. He is responding to you trying to cover SYQ and making what he did a normal matter. It wasn't normal. It was mega, ultra and hyper low!

Also, as I said - even without being tired Momota made those misjudgement - he has his reasons - but it wasn't due to being tired. You can think whatever you want. But if you have the least bit of not being biased you will see.
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Momota was clearly exhausted, he would obviously want to deny that but anyone could see he was out of it, from the pace to hoping shuttles would go out, to demeanor, expression and the pale face, those are the facts.
 
kurako said:
Don't worry; nobody is taking Axelsen's achievement at Odense away from him. It was a well-deserved win. But you seem a little eager in wanting to clean the slate for him.
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I am far from worried. It's just that your sentence I previously quoted is actually you doing that, taking VA's achievements away from him by saying he wouldn't have stand a chance against KM 2019 without you taking an eventual progression of VA or his 2018/2019 injuries and surgeries into account. But okay.

Going against the KM fans when they actually keep trying hard to bring down other's accomplishments (specifically from some users believing they own the KM thread and anything related to the player) does not automatically equate being a VA fan (you definitely got the wrong guy here, I just don't feel the need to disrespect a professional athlete publicly).

Or may be your assumption of me regarding VA comes from the fact you assumed the 2019 version of KM would have wiped VA in 2 sets for instance and that I spoke "against" (not even, I just stated that 2019 was behind) this, which might seem unconceivable for you. In a sense, isn't it this sort of reasoning, like stating KM 2019 would have finish it off in 2 sets, that is paving the way to dismissing other's future past accomplishments?

kurako said:
2019 may be behind us, but one shouldn't dismiss a player's previous achievements so readily. Whatever comes after those achievements, be it an accident, illness, injury, or old-age, ... does not diminish them. And that applies to all players, not just Momota.
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Very well said. I just hope some of the mega ultra super fans in the KM thread who really enjoy dismissing other's achievements read it too. Because the athlete bashing on this forum has been going on for way too long, making it such an unpleasant place to navigate at times.
 
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keithl said:
Momota was clearly exhausted, he would obviously want to deny that but anyone could see he was out of it, from the pace to hoping shuttles would go out, to demeanor, expression and the pale face, those are the facts.
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Except he did the same mistake against Tommy Sugiarto which he absolutely dominated. This is the fact. Pale face? Expression? Demeanour? He did it in each and every match he played since he came back.

Clearly you haven't watched his matches.

Now obviously he was exhausted. And I said it myself Axelsen caught up on stamina. There wasn't much difference in terms of stamina between these two yesterday. But is this the cause of the misjudgements? It is a clear as day NO!
 
Quentin11 said:
Except he did the same mistake against Tommy Sugiarto which he absolutely dominated. This is the fact. Pale face? Expression? Demeanour? He did it in each and every match he played since he came back.

Clearly you haven't watched his matches.

Now obviously he was exhausted. And I said it myself Axelsen caught up on stamina. There wasn't much difference in terms of stamina between these two yesterday. But is this the cause of the misjudgements? It is a clear as day NO!
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Since he came back, his stamina and physical fitness were no where where he was in 2019, that's why in every match regardless of the opponents, he tried to conserve and 'pace' himself so that he is not exposed. Like this match where he clearly run out of gas even with the pacing.
 
LenaicM said:
I am far from worried. It's just that your sentence I previously quoted is actually you doing that, taking VA's achievements away from him by saying he wouldn't have stand a chance against KM 2019 without you taking an eventual progression of VA or his 2018/2019 injuries and surgeries into account. But okay.

Going against the KM fans when they actually keep trying hard to bring down other's accomplishments (specifically from some users believing they own the KM thread and anything related to the player) does not automatically equate being a VA fan (you definitely got the wrong guy here, I just don't feel the need to disrespect a professional athlete publicly).

Or may be your assumption of me regarding VA comes from the fact you assumed the 2019 version of KM would have wiped VA in 2 sets for instance and that I spoke "against" (not even, I just stated that 2019 was behind) this, which might seem unconceivable for you. In a sense, isn't it this sort of reasoning, like stating KM 2019 would have finish it off in 2 sets, that is paving the way to dismissing other's future past accomplishments?
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You are far too sensitive @Lenaic. Mine was a half-jesting comment in reply to a point made by another member of this forum. Sure, I believe that Momota wouldn't have been troubled by the Victor Axelsen we saw on the 24th, were it 2019, ... but that is a fair opinion to have. Just as quite a few members here would 'speculate', as you put it, that a Lin Dan or LCW of previous years would wipe Momota and Axelsen off the court.

Incidentally, I do not take you for a VA fan. At the same time, I am not fooled by anyone's pretence of appearing objective. And while I agree with you that this forum can occasionally prove unpleasant to navigate, I also know that we all occasionally contribute to this unpleasantness.
 
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keithl said:
Since he came back, his stamina and physical fitness were no where where he was in 2019, that's why in every match regardless of the opponents, he tried to conserve and 'pace' himself so that he is not exposed. Like this match where he clearly run out of gas even with the pacing.
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That I fully agree with you. His stamina has been no where near what it was in 2019.

And to answer to someone else - yes 2019 is behind us. That doesn't mean you cannot use it as a benchmark. Not sure if that person even knows this practice. Benchmarking.

And despite having lower stamina it doesn't mean you can't feel good before reaching the 'exhausted' point. These errors in judgements are here irrespective of whether it was at the start or end or pressured or not.

I'm sorry but the kind of misjudgement Momota is making since he came back has nothing to do with normal.

At this point we can agree to disagree or we will end up running in circles.

Again to answer to someone else - not you @keithl - I will conclude with the below.

No one does any athlete bashing here because we all appreciate how hard these players work and credits goes to them. In fact the player I do not give enough credit is Momota himself because I have such high expectations. But some people will not see that because they have the tendency to reflect their own thoughts when reading the comment of other people. They also cannot make a difference between talking about something over and over in response to them and actually commenting about an athelete. These people are also like biased hawkeyes - they will find any word you say - even if you said it lightly - and misrepresent it.

I would ask them to try to stop that if they can. Hey only if they can - don't need to force it.
 
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