Unfair that a 12th ranked player, winner of Australia SS, is not in Olympics

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by galaxyduo, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. badlove

    badlove Regular Member

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    No. My BWF placed WC and OG as Level 1 while the lower SS and SSP is Level 2.

    The world badminton tournament structure has four levels: Level 1 (BWF Major Events), Level 2 (Superseries Premier and Superseries), Level 3 (Grand Prix Gold and Grand Prix Series), and Level 4 (International Challenge, International Series, and Future Series). TheThomas Cup & Uber Cup, Sudirman Cup andSuhandinata Cup are Teams Events. The others – Superseries, Grand Prix Events, International Challenge, International Series, and Future Series are all individual tournaments. The higher the level of tournament, the larger the prize money and the more ranking points available.

    My BWF is Badminton World Federation.
    What does your BWF stand for? Badminton Weirdest Fans?:D
     
  2. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    When you are reading my post, you have to read carefully and think thoroughly before you replied to me. Unfortunately, that's not what you did. LCW did win China Open 2015. In all honesty, this victory is crucial for his rise to become World NO 1 again. As I said before, it's not as if LCW played every single SS every year. Instead of focusing on how many events he didn't play, why not think in this way? Is it even possible for any player to achieve top rank without playing in SS circuit adequately?

    Since September 2015 until Australia Open 2016, there are a couple of SS events LCW didn't play. Those are Singapore Open, Superseries Finals, and Australia Open. The point to be made here is that you have to play adequately; but you don't have to play every single one. That said, not many players actually believed that they can achieve good results in every tournament they participated in.
     
  3. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    if I didn't read your post carefully, how could I know that you already help me twice ? ;)


    before your post, I already make an edit.
    I say 3 times (2010, 2012 and 2013)...because I forgot that he is in suspension in 2014

    even with that, since when I say about 2015 edition ?

    and until 2013, he never won china open / ssp before.
    what is the relation with 2015 edition ?

    see, who didn't read the post carefully ?


    2015 SSF he didn't qualify

    2015 / 16 singapore and australia is not mandatory

    2012 and 2013 china open ssp is mandatory for top 10 players, not to mention the world #1.
    USD 5000 fine apply in here

    see ?
    SSP = important ?
     
  4. badlove

    badlove Regular Member

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    So even your main Malaysian TV station mentioned even though LD and CL have been on and off in SS they're still the holder of the big titles (kejohanan major) and LCW also echoing TSB said that Oly is the biggest BWF tournament therefore LD and CL will be different guys in Oly, and BWF placed Oly and WC and AG as Level 1 higher than the Level 2 SS/SSP. You still think SSP is more important than Olympics?:rolleyes:
     
  5. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    Yeah, well, and in 2010 he did take a deserved break in the late season, because he was starting to run himself down.

    If you recall, that was the year where he broke the record for most SS won (by winning no less than 6).

    Denmark and France are late season SS.

    But he also didn't play in China Super Series in the late season (after Asian Championships), only to win at the Hong Kong one in December.
     
    #665 FeatherBlaster, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
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  6. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    I can only do what I can do. It's up to the readers to decide whether or not they want to read carefully. I know exactly what I mean. I know when others do not pay attention. It's not as if I don't repeat. But eventually, I have to stop because it falls on deaf ear.
     
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  7. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Denmark and French SS in October
    Asian Games in November
    Hong Kong SS in December (LCW is the winner in here).

    late season SS ?
    yes.
    but why he still there in HK at the end of the year ?
     
  8. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    Well, you posted the dates yourself, concluding that the SS tournament calendar doesn't leave you many breaks to rest and build up.

    Cutting out Denmark and France makes sense, for a player focussed on the Asian titles/market. Concluding that he didn't play, only because of Asian Games might not be correct, which you probably know. It has always been a huge problem for Denmark Open, to get the best asian players to come - but it's improving all the time. Perhaps because it is now a SSP? :)

    Have you thought about that he was still there to win HK at the end of the year, because he skipped a couple of tournaments earlier, and not completely ruined himself? Winning HK gave him the record 6 SS wins, so perhaps he did infact put some pride in the SSs, unlike the conclusion you gave, that AC was more worth to him than the entire SS calendar.

    Also, I think you can count on his sponsors having a say in which tournaments he plays and which he doesn't play. Recall when he recently travelled to a tournament, just 14 days ahead of the WC, to play MIXED DOUBLES? Ridiculous planning... Must have been some contractual reason.

    -----

    Anyway, I think you're out of reach - which is kind funny, given that our initial view is actually the same (LD>LCW and OG>WC>SS).

    I do wonder why you keep mentioning Lin Dan's world championships? I mean, he won the Olympics more times than anyone else, and OG > WC, so his WC titles must mean nothing to you? See? That's how you argue all the time...
     
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  9. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    in 2009, he was played in 15 events.
    in 2010, only 13 include AG and Commonwealth.
    in 2011, 15 events again

    no other tournament after China and HK open 2010.
    he can be more relax, as the SSM Finals will held in January next year (2011), not like in 2009 which was held in December.


    if this is the first time, you can say it is a coincidence.
    but what if I tell you this is the 2nd time ?
    the first time is 2006.

    LCW skip Denmark open 2006.
    for what ? for Asian Games :)


    he also attend Commonwealth Games.

    AC ? what is AC ?
    AG perhaps ?

    but what is the point of you ?
    he skipped Den - French for AG.
    that's the fact.


    if you talk about sponsor, I don't think the sponsor will give a miss in China open / SSP...the tournament in the biggest and most successful country in badminton...rather than only HK.


    I don't get it.
    first you say, I keep mentioning LD's world championships.
    then you say he won OG more than anyone else
    last you say his WC titles mean nothing to you (me)
    what do you mean ?


    for me, OG = WC...both as major title
     
  10. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Originally there were 12 Superseries annually from 2007, no distinction made, and players were choosing and skipping one or other of the SS as they liked, resulting in less than ideal turnout for certain unlucky ones that clashed or were too close to a particular tournament that is viewed as more important by a group of players. You see, there are 12 SS and you're expected to play in 10 if you exclude the lower tier GPG/GP so as to get a proper world ranking - playing less than 10 disadvantaged oneself unless you do exceptionally well in several of them.

    It's only in 2011 that BWF came out with two levels of SS, making 5 of them Premier that are compulsory for the top 8 with USD5K penalty for absentees, and higher minimum prize money of USD350K, then USD500K from 2014 onwards. I think it's the USD5K penalty (with exemptions subject to approval) that deters any top 8 players from choosing to skip any of the PSS. Even so, few and far between, one or two top 8 players skipped a particular PSS for their own reasons and paid the fines. Remember Lin Dan during his year-long post LOG'12 hiatus was slammed with a considerable fine of USD20K (was it 25K ?) for missing 4 (or was it 5?) Premier SS.

    As we can see from the BWF records, some players usually participated in 12 or so, sometimes fewer, while several others often competed in 15 to 20 ( 22 is the highest I've seen) with many early exits just to stay within , say, top 16 in order to avoid having to start from the qualification rounds of a PSS. That's why generally I don't take WR too seriously. More importantly, every player should plan their tournament schedule according to their needs and wants, and develop a strategy to maximise their chances of success in attaining their pre-set goals. Avoiding injury is another important consideration in addition to maintaining one's form or peaking at the right time for a specific tournament.

    This is one area where Lin Dan did remarkably well since capturing his first Olympic gold at Beijing and after his two WC crowns in 2006 and 2007. As @Fortune has pointed out, prior to that Lin Dan was already WR1 longest and garnered the most title wins. Getting your priorities right is one of the keys to success.

    Talking about consistency, Lin Dan is preeminent in winning all the major championships bar a couple and in beating his archrival LCW by a lop-sided H2H, not to mention all the rest.
     
  11. Airos

    Airos Regular Member

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    Morten Frost was widely regarded as the greatest player of his time for close to a decade.

    http://www.badmintoneurope.com/wwwPublic/Club/News/Detail/default.aspx?clubid=4685&m=3455037

    http://badmintonpeople.dk/cms/?cmsid=133&pageid=2329

    He never won the world championship.

    But he did win AE SSP, Den SSP and Mas SSP.



    I think anyone who says China National Games is more important than SS isn't thinking rationally.
    Rather, his thinking is China-centric.


    I think that is what I will do that too.
    Just express my views.

    It is indeed pointless to keep replying.

    I agree with this. There are no right answers.
     
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  12. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    These are the winners of 2013 National Games of China:

    MS: Lin Dan
    WS: LXR
    MD: Guo ZD/Hong Wei
    WD: Zhao YL/Wang XL
    XD: Lu Kai/Yu Yang

    If you look at who they defeated on the paths to the finals, there cannot be any doubt in anyone's mind that 2013 National Games of China was one of the most coveted and challenging badminton tournament in 2013, if not more challenging than London Olympics 2012.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinesische_Nationalspiele_2013/Badminton

    These are the winners of 2009 National Games of China (with runners up in square brackets):

    MS: Lin Dan.. [Bao CL]
    WS: Wang Lin.. [WSX]
    MD: Cai Yun / Xu Chen... [FHF/ZLH]
    WD: Du Jing / Yu Yang ... [Wang XL/Zhao YL]
    XD: Zhao TT / He HB .. [Zheng Bo / Tian Q]

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinesische_Nationalspiele_2009/Badminton

    Clearly, the 2009 National Games of China was the most challenging tournament for the year 2009.
     
    #672 pcll99, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  13. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    according to who Morten Frost is the greatest ?
    do you have significant proof ?

    Yang - Yang is the only player (before the one and only Lin Dan broke it) to win World Championships twice, even back to back.

    do you think Yang - Yang and his fans would agree with it ?

    without any significant proof, CBA and others include me also can say Luan Jin or Tian Houwei or Qiao Bin is even greater than Morten Frost.

    BAM also can say Darren Liew is the greatest of all time


    even AE greatest fans only dare to say,
    AE = unofficial world championships

    so how come the "unofficial" is even greater than the "official" ?



    http://www.badzine.net/2010/12/2011-china-badminton-league-team-rosters/11018/

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/china-badminton-premier-league.93226/page-2


    no matter you are world #1 or #300, no matter how worst your performance in SS / SSP...as long as you are OG / World Champion, then automatically you are "A" class player

    no matter how much you win SS / SSP include AE, and then badminton World Cup as well (a major according to you), plus world #1 perhaps, you are only "B" class player


    why Wang Yihan, AE winner & World Cup winner only as "B" class, while Wang Shixian who never won AE and World Cup, but grade as ""A-" ?

    I think it must be WSX perform better in CNG or Chn Badminton League than WYH.



    and what about LCW who regard Commonwealth Games as more important to him instead of your SS / SSP ???




    "My main target this year is Commonwealth Games and Asian Games because it comes every four years and I will retire before the next. So these two tournaments would be very important for me," he said.


    Asked about if winning the world championship is also on his mind, Lee said: "Yeah, there are too many tournaments this year. I think it is Commonwealth Games, then World Championship and then Asian Games. Also there is Thomas Cup in May."



    http://m.firstpost.com/sports/rio-2016-my-last-shot-at-olympic-gold-says-lee-chong-wei-1466519.html

    yesterday topic : OG / WC > SSP

    today, it become AG > SSP...

    and now become CWG > SSP :p


    why I dare to say CWG > SSP ?
    because this is the statement of LCW aka king of superseries
     
    #673 Fortune, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  14. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    The China National Games is a quadrennial (once every four years) multi-sport event at the national level, a mini-Olympics to the Chinese , a premier sports event in China for all their elite athletes and representing the various provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions.

    Just the 12th edition in 2013 held in Liaoning province from 31 August to 12th September involved 9770 athletes from 39 delegations comprising 4 municipalities, 22 provinces and 5 autonomous regions,including Hong Kong SAR and Macau SAR, for a total of 350 events in 31 sports. Further to this, the PLA and six sports associations also sent teams.

    Understandably, the Chinese badminton players would skip the prior one or two SS tourneys to prepare for the China National Games. Obviously, it concerns only the Chinese and no one else, what is so China-centric about it for their choosing to bypass a few SS tournaments for it ? In fact, from what we've known, some players in other countries also skipped the affected SS tourneys to prepare and take part in continental, regional or national events such as , the Asian Games, the Commonwealth Games, the SEA Games , and certain professional leagues (the Japanese ?).

    I recall Akane Yamaguchi withdrawing from the 2015 World Championships just to play in some national school games, presumably her last chance to represent her school. So it's not surprising that LCW pulled out from a couple SS tourneys to better prepare for the Asian Games in 2006 and 2010, neither of which he won , anyway.
     
  15. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Of course one can skip an SS for those events, rarely held or team events. Because there are 12 of them (SS), and ranking is the best of ten, so skipping is no big deal. But if one skip too much, it affects the ranking and it is difficult to climb up again! It took a fairly bad year for CL so to let LCW come back at n.1 spot.
     
  16. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    Jeez... claiming that CNG are the strongest and most difficult tournament to win (like pcll99 just did), is, well, rather China centric...

    I'm all OK for Chinese players to value this, and make room for it in their calendars. But claiming it to be a title that is more difficult to win than WC, AE, etc, is way off.

    China had 8 players in the WR top 100 at the time, and the bronze medal winner was Chen Yuekun, a guy who was ranked #30 in the world at the time, and peeked at his best of his career at #20. So basically there were 3 strong players in the tournament, Lin Dan, Du Pengyu and Chen Long (who I don't know what happened to in the singles). Now how is that a harder tournament than say... any SSP that year, let alone the WC or the AE?

    ----

    Just because you skip or withdraw from one tournament, and then play in another a few weeks later, you cannot conclude that you were withdrawing because you valued the next tournament higher, or that you did it in preparation for that.

    Also, it seems that not all BC users understand that tournaments have had different "value" over time. Like skipping Denmark Open in 2006, before super series was established, is just normal... Denmark Open was not what anyone prepared for at the time, and in Denmark it has always been a problem to attract the top Asian players to come - unless they were offered appearance money. There are so many tournaments, and you simply can't play them all, so you have to cut some. And that LCW has cut Denmark Open two times over a ten year period (one of which it was a SS), is not at all a "proof" that Super Series tournament doesn't matter to him...

    Also All England was a much more sought after title back when the old players were active, than it is now, compared to the WC. That's why it's called the unofficial WC. Because WC was not worth much some 30+ years ago. And it was not played every year like it is now. A lot of years AE was THE ONE TOURNAMENT you wanted to win the most.

    Prestige is what makes one tournament more important than another. You can't tell what makes a tournament more prestigious than another, except for it's the one that most players want to win, and that translates roughly to the one with the toughest fields. It can be based on history. It can be based on ranking points on the line. It can be based on price money. And one or more of these parameters can have an effect over time, to change the prestige of a given tournament. Perhaps price money isn't so important for China players, who have to hand over a huge chunk to the federation anyway, and perhaps in other countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, the national bonus for winning certain tournament are so big compared to the actual price money, that players are not so affected by the direct price money. But I can tell you, that if you created a tournament with, say the price money like Wimbledon, that tournament would quickly gain traction as being the one to win, and the field there would quickly become stronger than a lot of other tournaments - maybe even the CNG ;-)

    On the other hand, I don't know if we are slowly seeing a decrease in prestige for a tournament like AE. Simply because it's becoming "just another SSP", where it used to be "the unofficial WC". If ranking points don't give you extra, and the price money is not higher, and English players keep being so not dominant, then it's only history that are keeping it up there. Now, that's fine, as long as other tournaments are not competing for the same space. But I would assume, that in 20 years from now, it will be simply "on par" with about 3-4 other tournaments in what we sort of know as the SSP today, but will probably have another name by then... I wonder if BWF is not looking at Golf and Tennis with envy in their eyes, thinking "we should have these huge traditional tournaments, that really draws attention and TV viewers and sponsorships". Perhaps even a Ryder Cup like tournament "China vs. the World"...
     
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  17. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    IMHO, Morten Frost is one of the all-time greats but I rate him below Zhao Jianhua and Yang Yang.

    Yes, Xiong Guobao said MF is the best in his time but I thought he was quoted out of context when he meant players outside China apart from his teammates ZJH and YY. The three CHN players started their career targeting Morten Frost as their most formidable opponent, together with some INA players. Anyway, that's just me.

    And allow me the liberty to include Peter Gade as one of the all-time greats as well despite his not having won any major championships like LCW. Actually, I thought PG's even more unfortunate than LCW as his career spanned 17 tears coinciding with the likes of first Taufik then later Lin Dan and LCW, all of whom were stumbling blocks preventing him from winning the big ones. But PG did win the AE'99 which was a very prestigious tournament - a sort of mini WC to many - before the advent of the SS which designated the AE as just one of the 12 SS and later one of the 5 PSS, thereby diminishing its status somewhat.
     
  18. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    @Fortune, I remember Wang Shixian won the 2010 Asian Games individual title beating Wang Xin in the final as well as being part of the CHN winning team in the AG team event.

    And Wang Yihan was the 2011 World Champion. So both WSX and WYH are grade 'A' CHN players, if I'm not wrong.
     
    #678 Justin L, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  19. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Rereading pcll99's post, I realized he referred to the 2009 CNG (not 2013) as the most challenging (strongest ?) tournament of the year. Perhaps he exaggerated but looking at the lineup, it was a very strong tournament with the likes of Lin Dan, Bao Chunlai, Chen Jin, etc.

    Chen Yuekun in the 2013 edition of the CNG was the surprised 3rd-place finisher. Though lowly rated at #30 as FeatherBlaster pointed out he was in top form and stunned Chen long in the QFs, irrc. So with the likes of Lin Dan, Chen Long , Du Pengyu, Chen Jin (he though retired still competed), Tian Houwei, Li Yu (a retired ex-National player turned Jiangsu coach who played in the team event and created a huge upset beating Chen Long of Fujian province), and several others. Quite a strong tournament, equivalent to any normal SS tourneys.
     
  20. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Come to think of it, we can't blame CBA and even LCW for not regarding the All England as a major tournament as since 2007 it was designated as one of the 12 Superseries tournaments in a year and later upgraded to become one of the five Premier SS in 2011, effectively affecting its special status as one of the most prestigious tournaments with a long illustrious tradition, a sort of mini or unofficial world championship, esp when BWF had elevated the official World Championships on par with the Olympics as the two tournaments rated as Level 1 c/w the highest ranking points.

    Indeed, there's a fear, for those of us who are still nostalgic about the AE's glorious history as the de facto world championship once upon a time several decades ago, that as time goes by, its unique status and high prestige may begin to erode further unless something is done to stem it. Say, such as offering the highest prize money as to be irresistible coupled with awarding slightly higher ranking points than the other 4 PSS but still lower than the WC/OG for obvious reasons. But that's another topic.
     

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