today's serve judge let me recall Yawen Zhang's 11 fault calls in WC 2006

[demolidor]

can you believe such a stupid rule could be in any other professional sport? its all based on an imaginary line that nobody can see or verify!

But an actual (goal)line works so much better As long as humans are involved errors will always play a part which is why some sports use video referees. And as someone has mentioned in the other thread, even if there was an actual line not everything is going to be called unless you use one of those laser burglar alarm systems and when the server breaks it the red light starts flashing

. And as someone else also mentioned: it's professional sports, you always try to stretch the limits and if you break it you get caught (i.e. blatant high serves) and borderline you get some leniency. We're not robots yet thank zeus ... how boring would that be?? We wouldn't even have the chance to mindlessly babble on about it

 

[undeadshot]

Next time players should wear shirts that indicate where their lowest rib bone is

 

[AlanY]

But an actual (goal)line works so much better As long as humans are involved errors will always play a part which is why some sports use video referees. And as someone has mentioned in the other thread, even if there was an actual line not everything is going to be called unless you use one of those laser burglar alarm systems and when the server breaks it the red light starts flashing

. And as someone else also mentioned: it's professional sports, you always try to stretch the limits and if you break it you get caught (i.e. blatant high serves) and borderline you get some leniency. We're not robots yet thank zeus ... how boring would that be?? We wouldn't even have the chance to mindlessly babble on about it

the problem of the 'serve below waist line' is nobody can see it, so you cant even verify that an error been made or not. may be they should use x-ray camera, that will be fun.

 

[demolidor]

The way I see it the rule is only there to prevent excesses not to for foul calling. It's not that hard to roughly estimate the line and a clear excess of it isn't that hard to tell either and should be called, other than that: game on!
(of course consistently borderlining with the occassional marginal foul in there, more than a few, could be considered as an excess as well and would certainly deserve a few calls to keep them on their toes )

 

[AlanY]

The way I see it the rule is only there to prevent excesses not to for foul calling. It's not that hard to roughly estimate the line and a clear excess of it isn't that hard to tell either and should be called, other than that: game on!
(of course consistently borderlining with the occassional marginal foul in there, more than a few, could be considered as an excess as well and would certainly deserve a few calls to keep them on their toes )

'roughly estimate' - that is exactly the problem. the service judge can do whatever he/she like as there will be no proof that he/she was biased or made the right call. if a lineman made a wrong call, you can see it afterward from the video. even if the receiver fouled by the umpire by moved before the shuttle been hit the also can be checked later by video.
but this serve below 'the imaginary waist line' is just that, imagined by the server and the service judge.

 

[druss]

'roughly estimate' - that is exactly the problem. the service judge can do whatever he/she like as there will be no proof that he/she was biased or made the right call. if a lineman made a wrong call, you can see it afterward from the video. even if the receiver fouled by the umpire by moved before the shuttle been hit the also can be checked later by video.
but this serve below 'the imaginary waist line' is just that, imagined by the server and the service judge.

Not sure what you mean since it's easy enough to see in most videos whether the service is a fault or not AND it doesn't matter in any case what a video shows, even for a line call, since IBF does not use video replay.

Personally, I think all the pros are right on the border or make illegal serves all the time. They're trying to win so they will push the limits. I also think more of them should be faulted for delay of game, some of these guys walk around, wipe off with a towel... etc. too much.

 

[AlanY]

Not sure what you mean since it's easy enough to see in most videos whether the service is a fault or not AND it doesn't matter in any case what a video shows, even for a line call, since IBF does not use video replay.

Personally, I think all the pros are right on the border or make illegal serves all the time. They're trying to win so they will push the limits. I also think more of them should be faulted for delay of game, some of these guys walk around, wipe off with a towel... etc. too much.

what are you talking about? 'easy enough to see' the bottom rib of the server underneath the clothing! you got x-rayed eyesight, have you?

the rule about the shuttlecock must hit below the 'imaginary line' is the main problem. because its all in the mind of the service judge. its almost like to draw the imaginary goal posts in football and let the refere to decide if its a goal or not. got it?

 

[demolidor]

what are you talking about? 'easy enough to see' the bottom rib of the server underneath the clothing! you got x-rayed eyesight, have you?

the rule about the shuttlecock must hit below the 'imaginary line' is the main problem. because its all in the mind of the service judge. its almost like to draw the imaginary goal posts in football and let the refere to decide if its a goal or not. got it?

Yes easy enough. Unless they had their bottom rib removed to get that hourglass figure it's not exactly hard to guestimate where ones lower rib is from the armpit down for example. And in 99% of matches there is no camera evidence so a line across the net won't help in terms of "evidence" ...
As in the FIFA debate it should be applicable and executable on most if not all levels of play. If there are no camera's who can check afterwards what a service judge's performance was or immediately after a disputable call. No feedback, no behavorial adjustment?

(probably left some loose ends here and there since I'm rushing in these posts in between )

 

[druss]

what are you talking about? 'easy enough to see' the bottom rib of the server underneath the clothing! you got x-rayed eyesight, have you?

the rule about the shuttlecock must hit below the 'imaginary line' is the main problem. because its all in the mind of the service judge. its almost like to draw the imaginary goal posts in football and let the refere to decide if its a goal or not. got it?

As demolidor said, you don't need x-ray vision to know that if someone is hitting the shuttle at a height just under the armpit (which I've seen many times) that it's above the last rib...

 

[AlanY]

The way I see it the rule is only there to prevent excesses not to for foul calling. It's not that hard to roughly estimate the line and a clear excess of it isn't that hard to tell either and should be called, other than that: game on!
(of course consistently borderlining with the occassional marginal foul in there, more than a few, could be considered as an excess as well and would certainly deserve a few calls to keep them on their toes )

Yes easy enough. Unless they had their bottom rib removed to get that hourglass figure it's not exactly hard to guestimate where ones lower rib is from the armpit down for example. And in 99% of matches there is no camera evidence so a line across the net won't help in terms of "evidence" ...
As in the FIFA debate it should be applicable and executable on most if not all levels of play. If there are no camera's who can check afterwards what a service judge's performance was or immediately after a disputable call. No feedback, no behavorial adjustment?

(probably left some loose ends here and there since I'm rushing in these posts in between )

still dont see the problems? answer in RED

 

[druss]

No I don't...

Want to know what's wrong with any of the other solutions? People are still going to B(&#$& and complain about it. I don't think we'll ever move to a single line for all players, just doesn't make any sense to me.

I personally never worry about it, probably because I don't play in tournaments anymore myself so in rec play I just don't care most of the time unless it's blatant.

 

[demolidor]

still dont see the problems? answer in RED

Not really no, 99% of matches don't even have a service judge. Who's going to check even if there was a line? And if there was a line indeed they are still not going to call most things that are borderline, actual or imaginary line. Unless they also introduce an appeal option with a video referee I really don't see it making a difference since it will be the same (flawed) human judges that make the call at their discretion. They know very well a serve is marginally high but aren't calling it everytime untill it's so obvious even their grandmother can see it from the nosebleed section (be it obviously too high or marginally high a lot of times).
How are they supposed to see the line on the net anyway if they are sitting right next to it? Put a little sticker on the netpost? Try keeping an eye on those two things at once ... (for the whole match duration)

 

[demolidor]

^^(*%^% I missed the start of the match Had a positive point regarding an actual line but let's move over/back to the rules section. Will see if I can remember after dinner

 

[Blisse]

Wouldn't the elbow be sufficient evidence? Instead of the bottom rib, you use the bottom of the elbow. I can't imagine someone professional would play in long sleeves, so it's always visible, and for the most part, the bottom of the elbow is about an inch shorter than the bottom rib.

Or honestly, they just measure every player and if there is a dispute, use a machine that will point to wherever the lowest rib is on the player.

The problem is that if the judge holds any sort of bias, all marginal calls for the unfavoured side will be out, and all marginal calls for the favoured side will be in.

 

[bura836]

Sorry if my opinion is something beyond the discussion in this thread. I am just so stupid that I do not know the benefit of having this service judge. I also watch many match and we can see the replay only when the service is called fault so all the other serve we could not see if there are some fault services that are not called fault.

I wonder why not cease this rule and give free style for serve. So long that they allow all player to serve freely and equally, no one have any advantage I think. Why create the rule for controversial and for weapon of the judge to bias if any. Badminton has so delicated rule when compare to tennis and I do no like to see badminton player are more being commanded by the judge, instead of playing in style and create colourful in the playing game, not with the key role of the judge.

So what I miss is what is the benefit of service judge, not to make it higher than waist ? How about the dress make the player look different in level of the waist? What is the rule say about the service though?

 

[demolidor]

Wouldn't the elbow be sufficient evidence? Instead of the bottom rib, you use the bottom of the elbow. I can't imagine someone professional would play in long sleeves, so it's always visible, and for the most part, the bottom of the elbow is about an inch shorter than the bottom rib.

Or honestly, they just measure every player and if there is a dispute, use a machine that will point to wherever the lowest rib is on the player.

The problem is that if the judge holds any sort of bias, all marginal calls for the unfavoured side will be out, and all marginal calls for the favoured side will be in.

But your elbow doesn't remain still when serving? Or you mean beforehand as an estimation?

Sorry if my opinion is something beyond the discussion in this thread. I am just so stupid that I do not know the benefit of having this service judge. I also watch many match and we can see the replay only when the service is called fault so all the other serve we could not see if there are some fault services that are not called fault.

I wonder why not cease this rule and give free style for serve. So long that they allow all player to serve freely and equally, no one have any advantage I think. Why create the rule for controversial and for weapon of the judge to bias if any. Badminton has so delicated rule when compare to tennis and I do no like to see badminton player are more being commanded by the judge, instead of playing in style and create colourful in the playing game, not with the key role of the judge.

So what I miss is what is the benefit of service judge, not to make it higher than waist ? How about the dress make the player look different in level of the waist? What is the rule say about the service though?

Free style serve? Like a smash?

There are dozens of threads on service here; I am looking for one in particular that mentiones recent experiments with a fixed height. One test was with a height of 110cm but no further news and I believe there should be another one with input from an actual umpire, possibly the one from the AE semifinal match ...

 

[druss]

Can't use the elbow because not everyone holds the elbow straight down while serving, most people actually have both elbows lifted up and away from the body.

As for a free style... most would throw the shuttle up and do a jump smash so unless the service had to be from the back of the court (like volleyball) it would be an instant point.