There are soooo many things wrong with what you just said...First off, what i dont get is that you insist that it is mndtrks girls who broke the rules. No where in the rules does it say you have to ask. It is upto the people who got to 14 first to decide. IF anything, they're the ones who should get penalized, and it would be ridiculous to penalize them. The other girls knew the rules, but they didnt exercise that option. Its not like they DIDNT know and someone took advantage of them. The girls tied to score at 14, waited....held up the bird and said.."POINT-14"..then the other girls got ready to recieve the serve, and once it was served, they returned it. Then after the point was won, they said 'hey wait a minute, we wanted to set.' They CLEARLY KNEW THEY COULD SET. Playing past 1 point or 3 points, it does not matter, the moment to object is past. What youre thinking of is like similiar to arguing a line call 2 plays ago or 10 plays ago.....it does not matter, that moment has passed. What i mean is like if you hit a shot, i call it out. I think pickup the birdie serve it, you return it, we rally, i win the rally ofcourse (hehe), then you argue that i made a bad call on the last play and that the birdie touched the line. Then if your ruling would be to go out and play 5 more points, what if one of the sides didnt want to play for another 5? You would disqualify them? Not only are YOU breaking the rules, but youre adding on rules in the middle of a tournament. If one of those teams complained to your governing badminton board.....you would lose your sanction. Had you created that rule and posted it in writing at the beginning of the tournament you would be fine. But essentially you are creating rules that are not IBF sponsored. Why not stop at 5? why not throw the match out and make them play again? Or just disqualify both teams.
So if someone says to you.."GAME POINT"...do u not understand that we are playing for game point? They said.."POINT-14".....Other girls heard it, and returned the bird no problem.
So, if the girls say point-14, does it mean that they got to decide the "set"? Who should decide on the 1 or 3 set? That's why I'm saying, both teams made a mistake by not saying anything, that's why they have to replay. In case of winning at 17-16, does it make sense to replay? I just use my common sense.
Not broke the rules, but ignored them! The oposition are the ones with the choice of what to set to as per the rules so why did they just anounce the score and serve? Is it not their duty to wait for a reply? That is correct you do not have to ask since you have no say in the outcome but you do have to wait for a reply do you not? So how can you proceed without a clear indication of what to play to since it is not your decision? Then fine, but what I would like to know what does "POINT-14" mean? I thought the correct call is "matchpoint", possibly including a "what do you want to set to?" so ther is no way there can be any ambiguity. Nope my point is that if there is any recourse by any of the players then it is dealt with in a common sense orientated manner after the action listening to both parties and their coaches and agreeing a course of action which all parties have a say. No I would not lose my sanction by agreeing a course of action which all parties had consented to! No one is being forced to play to a set score or another game. Matters like this sometimes have to be dealt with in tournaments but this since this one, according to you is outside the rules and their interpritation then the only fair way to resolve it is asking all parties involved their opinion and finding neutral ground and taking it from there, once action is agreed then there is no comeback from any party and no one does anything they don't want to. My analysis if there was a complaint about the game would be to ask mndtrks girls what the setting was to and who announced it, a game can only proceed if there is an anouncement of what to play to, 1 or 3. In my opinion matchpoint was not claimed by that side so they would be penalised serving when not knowing what to play to. That is unless of course if POINT-14 means matchpoint according to the rule book. That is my interpritation of what happened.
rematch from where the game were getting confused ( 14-14 1 st serve), but i don't think we could do that so the winning team stay cause they were both in the error.
No you would not lose your sanction if both parties agreed, but what i'm saying is what would you do if one of those parties did not agree to whatever it is that you decided. You still do not have a definite solution. What i'm trying to get it, is that you two (i forget who else was leaving posts) want to develop rules on a case-by-case basis. That would be totally unfair, because then youre leaving it upto human descretion, and thats how we got in this situation in the first place. My feeling is that IBF should come up with a contingency rule, basically doing one of two things. 1)You leave it as is, and whoever got to 15 first would win. or 2)You automatically goto a set 3, and one team would be up 15-14. (but theres problems here, because if you were the team that goto 14 first, why would u ever say anything? I would play it out, if i got the serve back it would be game point, if i didnt it would be set) The reason why it would be unfair if you leave it upto human descretion is that you will get different rulings based on the tournament director. You may not have a fair one, you may have a biased one who doesnt like that team. There should be one set rules so that you have an if/then. The other problem with the solution you guys came up with, is making a team replay a point. No matter what sport it is, you will NEVER see a team have to replay an event. (american football does not count, because the penalty would be directly related to the play, while in this case regardless of what decision of setting or not setting would be that would not effect the outcome of the next rally). If for basketball, a free throw was made while the clock wasnt running properly, they would NEVER make the player reshoot the free throw. No matter how bad the call on the play was. Example, 2 years ago in the NFL, tampa bay buccaneers, on 4th down. The guy managing the field marker left it on 3rd, brad johnson thought it was third down so he spiked the ball to kill the clock. Only to be later told it was really 4th down. You better believe the they got off the field because the game was over. Does that sound fair? someone holds up the wrong sign so he loses a game.....it was totally fair because he shouldve known what down it was.....same thing in this case, those girls should have known. And whoever it was...YES, you said that mndtricks girls broke the rules. "If we have an umpire here I would like to hear their views - I think they would penalise the winners for breaking the rules." All I'm trying to say is....come up with a standard rule that we can use without any exceptions.
In the US, on the west coast (i dont know if they do this anywhere else actually) we sometimes just go ..."POINT".....to signify matchpoint. I dunno its a westside thing i guess? We like to shorten things, everyones in such a daym hurry to spit out the sentence that we end up developing new words like...'shizzle'.....and every other word that rhymes with it.
I'm not saying make anyone do anything, all I am saying is that all parties are present (players, coaches, officials) when any discussions are taking place with what to do and the matter is resolved to the satisfaction off all parties there is no bias towards any one party in the debate! These kind of things where situations arise that are not wholy covered by the rules happen more regularly than you know about and it is up to the tournament organisers to find neutral ways out of these kinds of predicaments that suits all parties involves. That is of course if there are no "local" rules previousley printed that take these things into account. More or less like local rules on certain golf courses. And the thing about saying "point" is that it is a regional variation and not evereyone would understand what this means especailly if the score has gotten away from them as it does in all games at times. You should be clear and either say "matchpoint" or "setting". I would still like to hear the opinion of a ref!
F0llowing The Law of Badminton IBF? In a proper tournament, beside the players, coaches, supporters, the appointment of courts officials- refereee, umpire, srvice judge and line judgel is very essential. Expecting player to act as umpire in a tournament is totally unfair. Beside your player is using the wrong vacabulary when the score reached point-14, instead of calling that, it should be called out as Match Pont, 14-all As your player called out the score as if she is the umpire, then she should ask the opponent side Are you setting? If affirmative Setting, 14-all or if the answer is negative. Game is not set
I Agree with Papa Smurf! Again, everyone is trying to penalize mndtrcks girls, but they did not break a rule. Their opponents were the ones in error and should know their rules. I can't believe so many people want to add to the rules or break rules to rule "Fairly". Bottom line is you never go back and replay a point that has already been played. Many of you say that you would force them to go and play, but what if mndtrcks girls said they won, because the rules state that all games end at 15 unless the team at 14 first sets before the next serve is played. That is what the rule says. Would you disqualify them for knowing the rules better than you? I would side with mndtrcks girls everytime. I have coached many badminton teams in college and high school and if my players did not set and lost 15-14, I would be upset with them and myself. I would not be upset with mndtrcks girls. In fact it has happerned on more than one occasion and I've never asked to go back and replay anything. My team did not exercise their option and they lost. I try to teach personal responsiblity, not blame others. That's one of the great things about sports and how they relate to life.
I do not get your point. The rule says you have a choice, but that choice is to be made before the next point is served. If you do not choose to set than you play to 15, or next point wins. What I also do not understand is that everyone is giving mndtrcks opponents an unfair advantage. Think about it...the best thing would be not to say anything and play the next point, then if you break serve you can serve for the win at 15. If you dont break serve then you can protest that you did not get a chance to set and must so you can play to 17. Has anyone thaught that maybe it is mndtrcks opponents that were being less than honest. They clearly knew they could set, but they didnt. It was only after they lost did they change their minds. Maybe they didnt want to set beacuse they thought they could break serve, and then when they lost they changes their minds. Why would anyone want to be so anxious to reward that kind of unsportsmanlike behavior?
I would say that the most unsportsmanlike behavior of this tournament is the organiser committing the biggest mistake of not appointing the most important court offical i.e. umpire and expect all parties to follow the Law of Badminton IBF
My understanding is that this is a high school match, and the officials would be the coaches. I would say it is not realistic to have an official at each court in that situation. From the original post by mndtrcks it seems that his teams opponents knew the score, knew they could set, and did not set. Then lost the point and then asked to set. Again is a perfect world I would agree with you, but theirs perfect and theirs reality. In this situation it seems clear to me, that mndtrcks team should be declared the winner, because they did not break a rule and if you go back and replay you are allowing their opponents to change their minds after the fact and get away with it....and thats crazy!
I don't want to side with any party and conclude which side is the winner. Now my question is: Who is the " umpire' for the match, the player who call out the score, the coach? There must be someone who does the duty of keeping the score sheet or call out the score and try to act as 'umpire' If there is none, I still think that the organiser is unsportmanlike.
In high school badminton in california, players keep their own score unless they ask for a score keeper or score keepers provided (other high school players) in section championships. I dont understand why so many people on this post don't want to choose a side. bottom line that is what mndtrcks originally asked, for our opinions on how we would decide based on the rules, not our thoughts on sportsmanship and the like. Again, for me it is easy, the only decision that I could make and not be in violation of the rule book is that mndtrcks girls won. In my opinion, it would be hard to justify any other conclusion without adding to or breaking an existing rule. As I have stated before in a perfect world it would never happen but it did and a point was played, so you can't go back. Also mndtrcks opponents knew the rule, they just wanted to evoke it after the fact. Everyone has said they didnt speak up, but they did after they lost! Too late. It may be a hard lesson to learn, but its one that needs to be taught.
long thread... nice read... it taught me a lot about this rule which i never really agonized over since with the people i play with, we usually almost always play to 17 in the case of a 14-14 score. I'd have to agree with papa smurf and badmonte on this one. Rules are rules and in this case of ambiguity, the rules would've sided with mndtrck's girls if i were to make a decision on it. It looks clear that their opponents were the sneaky ones who were hoping to break the serve and finish the game at 15 and then decided to try to get a technicality bail them out of their choice after they lost.
Replaying points is common in badminton. It is called a "Let". e.g. Service Court Errors. But if the game continues beyond the point that is in dispute, it is too late. The correct way to call the score would have been. "14 match point all"
It is the Umpire's job to call the scores. Laws - RTCO (Recommendations to Court Officials) 3.3 During the match the umpire shall record and call the score everyone seems happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire part of the same law 3.3.6 "Game Point" (or "match point", where applicable) should be called in each game and for each side on the first occasion that a side reaches 14 or 16 (10 or 12 in women's singles) these calls should always immediately follow the serving side's score and precede the receiving side's score. everyone seems happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire part of the same law 3.3.7 when the scores are first level on game point/match point, ask the receiver "Are you setting?" ... Are we all happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire?
Sorry Badmonte, I don't agree with you. Rule 7.5 states that the set is determined by mndtrks opponent. Continuing play without knowing how much to set violates this rules (even if in ancient times, it was defaulted to be set to 15 as kwun says, now the rules are different). Second, reading this thread, I didn't even knew what "Point 14" meant before someone explained it. Third, the girls getting to serve last said "Point 14", as if THEY were the one who decided to which point to set. But it is the opponent to decide FIRST, and not to be SUGGESTED forcefully to which point to set. Fourth, when you're in the heat of a match, and someone is getting ready to serve, of course, by reflex, you'll get ready to receive... I agree with the ruling made. On another matter, winning by all means necessary with low level tricks is unsportsman like.
If you read the original post again, it says they tied the game.... Waited for the opponent, they didnt say anything...then held up the bird said..'point-14'. Then the opponents got ready to return the serve. To me that says that they're ok with the decision. Think of it as "would you like to set?" and "would you like to play to 15". "point-14" would refer to "would you like to play to 15". (Over in the westcoast, "point" is very commonly used to signify "matchpoint". When i was playing back in 1998, thats how we did it and nobody ever had a problem with it. So for this situation we should assume the other girls knew what point-14 meant.) Back to my point.....Both questions can be consider as leading the opponent. But ULTIMATELY it is the opponent's agreeing or disagreeing, that is the decision process itself. If you told me to shoot someone, and i did it, when i goto court i cannot say that i did it because you told me to. mndtrks girls didnt force them to play to 15. They presented an option, and the other girls took it. If anyone reading this entry still isnt persuaded.... Go out and punch your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever... then tell them the reason why you did it, is because i told you to. See what happens then.
