The issue on Gymnastics

Discussion in 'ATHENS 2004 non-badminton events' started by pptam, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. pptam

    pptam Regular Member

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    Hey guys and gals,

    I know this is a badminton forum. But just want to get your opinion.

    Should Paul Hamm gives up his gold medal which he had won in individual all round?

    The committee members had no problem to award another gold medal to the runner up if Paul Hamm willing to share. Is it the best solution?
     
  2. New_Guy04

    New_Guy04 Regular Member

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    during 2002 salt lake city winter games, when russians won over canadians in figure skating, about 2 days later they awarded canadians too with the gold... how come they don't do that to the korean guy? is it bcuz korea is not a G7 country, is that why they didn't give them a gold medal?? :mad:
     
  3. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    I believe he should give up the gold medal, there is a significant difference between the figure skating debacle and Paul Hamm's comeback...In the case with Paul Hamm, and we know the scores and outcome if the error is remedied. But the case with figure skating, we have no idea what the score would have been had the French judge been honest. To this day, they are still unsure if the Canadian would have won, because there is more than one judge, only the popular opinion that it looked like they should have won. So awarding two gold medals seemed the only decision in the matter.
    I know it is hard to give back the gold, but I believe it is in the best interest to his sport if he does. After all the facts say he got second, no question about it. I think the public hates him because everyone knows he got second, but was rewarded first on a simple scoring mistake and he can make the whole situation right with a gesture that would embody the spirit of sport...If he keeps the gold, that will in my opinion further undermine the creditability of the scoring in gymnastics. If I was Paul Hamm, I don't know how he can even believe he is the gold medalist anymore after the fact...I mean that is something I wouldn't want to live with, the medal is a symbol of accomplishment, but the gold would not accurately depict his accomplishment, it is a lie.
     
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i agreed with V1lau, Paul Hamm's gold medal was result of mathematical error. The points from the judges remain the same, just have been added incorrectly and recifiable. It's almost like if i found a wallet containing $10,000. It's not mine but i can keep it if i wanted to. Paul Hamm's consicous won't allow him a peace of mind. Everytime he look at his gold medal, he knows it was earned from an adding error, not by merit.

    I think Paul Hamm would be more admired and remembered if he return the gold medal.
     
    #4 cooler, Aug 23, 2004
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    agree with cooler. there is a lot of difference between a mathematical error and a judging error. a judging error is subjective but a mathematical error is exact.

    i think we are starting to see media condemn Paul Hamm's choice to retain the medal that is rightfully not his.

    i too wonder how this guy is going to live with his conscience for the rest of his life.
     
  6. Californian

    Californian Regular Member

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    This official's error hurt everyone involved--the athletes, the sport, the Athens Olympics, the judges... And nothing anyone can do now can make it completely right.

    On top of this incident, there are Svetlana Khorkina's comments and what happened today in the Men's high bar (why not just have the crowds decide the outcomes).

    I don't agree that the medal should be taken from Hamm. Some have suggested he give it up voluntarily, but it would be purely a symbolic gesture--he would still be listed in the records as the winner.

    It has been shown that the judges also missed taking a mandatory deduction against Yang that would have lowered his score by 0.2.

    In the end, Yang may also be awarded a Gold as a diplomatic solution. Makes you wonder how many times this may have happened before in past years and was not caught. Do we go back over all the past records and change things now?

    The response I read from Yang was not to blame the judges because he knew he could have done better. It was refreshingly humble in the modern era of NBA-type mentality.
     
  7. Phil

    Phil Regular Member

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    I think a major oncoming problem for human-judged sports like gymnastics is that everyone is getting better and its almost impossible to judge so exactly so that everyone is judged fairly. For example, in this gymnastics issue, the judges have looked at the video replay and agree that they made a scoring error, however they also missed something that would deduct by 0.2. (4 stoppages on the bars or whatever when gymnast is only allowed 3)

    Like someone (I think Hamm) said, the Olympics judges looking at the video replay has opened up a whole can of worms.

    Phil
     
  8. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    Everyone makes it seem Paul Hamm is the victim in this situation...where has he suffered?...he has the gold medal after all. All the statements he has made suggest he has ignored the evidence that the world will not ignore and doesn't care. I think the world dislikes how he seems to have no sympathy for the South Korean and chooses instead to express how the world is treating him badly.

    The victim of this tragedy is the South Korean athlete who is being penalized by a MATHEMATICAL ERROR (a group of judges being careless), not performance. What should be his remedy? Do you not give the man who deserves the gold, the gold medal? Do we choose to ignore the evidence, and say too bad, maybe next time you well perform better and we won't have this mistake!!!...NO, we acknowledge the error, and do the right thing and give up the medal. Does it diminish his accomplishment? No, it adds dignity to the moment, to himself, and to humanity.

    If you want to compare video replays, then you have to go over all of them and not just one moment. If we look at video replay of the whole competition, I am sure we will find deductions everywhere, it’s not like you can honestly believe they only made one mistake. The only thing video replay can prove is that the gymnastic scoring system is seriously flawed, which was plainly obvious by the individual high bar competition tonight.

    The reason we don't go in the past is there was no complaint and the result were accepted. In this case, the complaint is clearly legitimate and has been upheld. And if you are "refreshed" by Yang's humbleness, just imaging how much more refreshed you will be if Paul Hamm gives back the gold in a voluntary "symbolic gesture" of sportsmanship? Paul Hamm has the opportunity to embody everything good in sports, but instead he chooses to epitomize all that is wrong with humanity.
     
  9. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    ATHENS, Greece - The Russian Olympic delegation joined the growing list of Olympic malcontents Tuesday, arguing that its two biggest stars got cheated in the gymnastics competition.

    The Russians sent letters to the International Gymnastics Federation and to International Olympic Committee (news - web sites) president Jacques Rogge to complain about scoring that cost Svetlana Khorkina (news - web sites) a gold medal in the all-around and kept Alexei Nemov off the medal stand in high bar finals.


    Canada was cheated out of a bronze medal


    ATHENS -- Gymnastics Canada's decision to protest the score of bronze medal-winning vaulter Marian Dragulescu revolves around two simple technical errors made by the judges. First is the list of automatic deductions for various infractions on a dismount that were obviously ignored by most of the six judges:

    Out of bounds -- .2 deduction.

    Hand on the ground -- .3 deduction.

    Steps off of dismount -- .1 deduction each step.

    Dragulescu's dismount on his second vault saw him step out of bounds, put his hand on the ground and take two to three steps after his dismount, not to mention coming out of his final twist early, which is also a mandatory deduction.

    According to Canadian coach Tony Smith, who is a certified International Gymnastics Federation judge, it warranted at least a .8 deduction, giving Dragulescu a highest possible score of 9.1, assuming everything else in his vault was perfect, which it wasn't.

    Instead, the judges scored it as follows: Portugal -- 9.5, Venezuela -- 9.5, Switzerland -- 9.0, Japan -- 9.1, Italy -- 9.25, Peru -- 9.45.

    The average of their scores (with the highest and lowest scores thrown out) was 9.325.

    Secondly, the code of points dictates the head judge must ensure all of the four scores that count are separated by no more than .20 if the vault is worthy of a 9.0 or higher. The spread in this case was .40.

    Had the second vault been scored lower than 9.1, as the rules suggest it should have, Calgary's Kyle Shewfelt would have received the Olympic bronze medal instead of Dragulescu.

    The technical committee head, who hails from Romania like Dragulescu, refused to read the protest prompting Canadian officials to pursue advice from other committee members.



    I wonder if computer can be construct to scan, digitally analyse and grade a moving object with predetermined tolerance and specification. This way, the 'black box' can't be altered once it's set.
     
  10. Syaoran_Style

    Syaoran_Style Regular Member

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    that was i wondered too LoL
    I really don't understand him ... :mad: :confused: If it was me, (but unfortunately this is not me hahhaha) i really would like to get my medal with firstly HONOR ! (maybe i'm too proud :D ) I would like when i see my Gold Medal (MY GOLD MEDAL hahhaha i can dream =p) say proudly I DERSERVE IT ! ... But Paul Hamm will never can tell him this ...
     
  11. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    Paul Hamm refuse to give back gold medal

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ATHENS, Greece - Gymnastics officials asked Paul Hamm (news - web sites) to give up his gold medal as the ultimate show of sportsmanship, but the U.S. Olympic Committee told them to take responsibility for their own mistakes. FIG president Bruno Grandi tried to send the letter Thursday night to Hamm through the USOC, but the USOC refused to deliver it.




    I think Paul Hamm blew a 'golden' opportunity to become a real and Olympic hero when he didn't offer to return the medal immediately after the mistake was disclosed.

    He'd be far more famous and commercially valuable had he done so on his own accord. Instead, he'll always be remembered as the guy who didn't really win the gold LOL. He could have been remembered as the genuine champion who won but gave it up as a gesture of sportsmanship and fairplay.

    It's too late now, of course. He's squandered his one great chance to be a real hero. Even if he does return the medal after a long fight with the FIG, it won't be the same.
     
    #11 cooler, Aug 27, 2004
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2004
  12. Californian

    Californian Regular Member

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    Does that mean we won't be seeing his picture on a Wheaties box? :rolleyes:
     
  13. Qidong

    Qidong Regular Member

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    Paul Hamm initally said he would return the medal only if FIG asked him to do so. Now, he changed his mind. BAD BOY. :mad:
     
  14. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    would the IOC revise the medal standing to give KOR the gold and USA the silver even tho paul hamm still hugging his gold medal? It is possible that the US olympic committe pressure paul hamm to keep the medal so that US doesn't get docked 1 gold .
     
  15. laughable c.

    laughable c. Regular Member

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    hey, i know this issue is stale by now. but no doubt everyone still remembers it. here's an article regarding the same issue. read it. i simply have to agree with mike. you could even get some laughs. i got it from another forum, one who made copies from yet another source.

    COMMENTARY
    By Mike Celizic
    MSNBC
    Updated: 1:53 p.m. ET Aug. 24, 2004ATHENS,

    Greece - Paul Hamm had his golden moment, and he grabbed it like a starving wolf latching onto a lamb chop. And now he has a Golden opportunity, worth a lifetime of moments, and if he doesnt grab it right now, it will be gone forever.

    He may already have missed his chance to show the world that americans still believe in sportsmanship and to generate the kind of goodwill that this country will never recover, no matter how many times the White House issues statements about how much better off Iraq is now than it was before we brought peace,
    harmony, democracy and full employment there.

    On Sunday night, Hamm competed for individual medals in two disciplines. All he had to do was call members of the South Korean delegation beforehand,tell them to meet him in the packed arena before the competition, and hang his medal around Yang Tae-youngs neck.

    A packed arena would have erupted in cheers that you could have heard at the bottom of a well in Montana. Women everywhere would still be weeping a week from now at the nobility of the gesture, and not a few men would be weeping with them.

    Not because it is something Hamm had to do, but because it is something he or anyone in his situation should do.

    Yang is the man who, had the judges been able to count to 10, would have won the all-around gold that went to Hamm last week. Hamms victory was the first for an American male, and it was earned with one of the greatest comebacks that sport has ever seen.

    Hamm won his gold fairly by the rules of his sport, and the medal along with all the parting gifts that go with it are his to keep.But theres a little problem. Even though the rules say he should keep the medal, the fact remains that he won it because the judges goofed in rating the parallel bar routine of Yang, giving it a starting value of 9.9 instead of the 10 it should have had. The extra one-tenth of a point would have given Yang the gold.

    It was an honest mistake, but that makes it no less stupid. And it could have been corrected on the spot if the Koreans had noticed it and brought it up before the competition on the bars was concluded. But the rules say once the contestants moved on to the next apparatus, all avenues of appeal are closed.

    The Koreans discovered the mistake a day later, as Hamm was making the rounds of the Today show and all the other channels and networks. They say they made the protest right away, but the judging panel disagrees. The South Koreans protested mightily, but the rules are the rules, no different than the rules in a football game that say a bad call cant be corrected once play resumes.

    In golf, they call it rub of the green. In life, we say stuff or
    something that starts with the same letter happens.

    But you have to understand how this is reading in other countries in general and in Korea North and South particularly. Two years ago at the Salt Lake City Winter Games, U.S. short-track speed skater Anton Apolo Ohno got tangled up with a South Korean skater on the last turn of a race and ended up with a medal while the Koreans got nothing.

    The judges ruled that Ohno did not commit a foul. I wrote a column
    supporting that position. In the next few days, I got more vile and
    vituperative e-mail from Koreans than I had ever received on anything I have ever written. And not just a few more. Hundreds and hundreds more. My e-mail account was attacked and overwhelmed, and I finally had to block e-mail coming from Korea.

    Im not defending the people who wouldnt accept an honest opinion and wouldnt engage in civil discourse. But it taught me that in Korea, the episode was accepted as an American plot to steal a little bit of glory from a people who want winners just as badly as we do.

    Its just incredibly bad luck that Hamms medal was won at the expense of a Korean. But in that country, its taken as proof that America is an arrogant and bloated monolith that wont be satisfied until it owns the world and all the gold medals in it. Thats an absurd belief, but so are a lot of the things we believe in.

    The point is if you collected all the ill will toward America on the
    planet and wadded it up into a ball, it would be a really big ball. We cant turn all of it into goodwill overnight. But if we can perform one selfless act on a stage that the entire world is watching, we can put a dent in it.

    Just tell Yang to come down to the gym and hang the medal around his neck. Thats all Hamm had to do. Instead, he got a bit snippy when asked about the affair, saying he was angry, he won it by the rules, and hes keeping it.

    End of discussion.

    You have to ask whats more important, doing the right thing or having a gold-plated hunk of bronze that tens of millions of people are going to say from now until forever that you wouldnt have won if the dumb judges and, aha, one of them was an American had been able to count?

    And go ahead, be greedy about it. Think of how much more one magnanimous act like this would be worth. Think of billions of people seeing you do the right thing by giving up the medal you worked your tail off to win and handing it to the guy who got screwed through no fault of yours or his.

    If you thought the first shot on the Today show was cool, forget it.
    Youll get a second one that will be longer. Letterman and Leno will put you on speed-dial. Everywhere you go, people will say, "There goes the man who gave up his medal, not because he had to, but because it was the right thing to do."

    Do you have any idea how much thats worth? Hamm doesnt. Otherwise, he would have done it already.

    Very quickly its going to be too late, because the opinion mongers, a union of which I am a card-carrying member, are weighing in on this. And its not going to look as gracious if you do it only after every columnist in America has beaten you over the head with the course material from Ethics 101.

    Wait long enough, and all people will say is, "There goes the guy who had to be shamed into doing the right thing."

    The windows still open, Paul. Do the right thing.

    Mike Celizic writes regularly for NBCSports.com and is a freelance
    writer based in New York.

    - unfortunately, now, the windows have closed. correction: paul, you have closed those windows. the whole world will so remember you, now. must have been what you always wanted. 'if you can't be famous, be infamous', huh?
     
  16. laughable c.

    laughable c. Regular Member

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    unlikely to be true. paul had been so adamant on keeping his gold from the beginning.
     
  17. Adel

    Adel Regular Member

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    This is a great article! Thank you!
     

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