Sudirman cup draw

Discussion in 'Sudirman Cup 2003' started by Zhao, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    Hi

    I saw the draw for Sudirman and i think it's not fair to play with 7 divisions.
    Badminton is the only sport where a country have to wait 12 years to be world champion!!! Stupid. Imagine in football or tennis!!!

    I think with this system, IBF wants to protect the "big country".

    That's the same problem with EBU for EC. Only one country go down every 2 years for the first division, and 3 countries for the second division... No comment!!!
    If a team have the level to be on the podium, that's not possible.


    What's your opinion about that?

    :confused:
     
  2. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Can't agree with ur point:

    1. S. Cup is more a competition for "overall" rather than individual performance, all five events will be count, rather than one. I can understand a division 2 or 3 nation, has a individual champ. (Like Malaysia's men's team) However, to be rec. as a super power, it will take time to develop the program.

    2. How many chance u see, say, a division 5 or 6 team can even put on a fight with division I or II teams? To let the game to stay competitive, it's fair to give them 8-10 yrs to let their young generation even get a chance to charllenge.

    3. I think u use football (soccer, as I guess) is a totally different case. Yeah, they do have 32 teams in world cup, but there's just 1 match between 2 teams (within group), but S. cup, u need at least 3 matches to move on, and very possible it will be 4 or 5. Also, the tops players (especially double players), need to participate in more than 1 events, if necessary (example, MD & XD or WD & XD). It's impossible to let them face mult. matches every single day.

    4. For tennis, it's more like an individual sports, so, no surprise, each time, there's could be some great upset. However, back in my #1, single or even 2 events can't make a nation to even threaten the super powers in S. cup.

    5. For naitons within "striking distance", either they are already division I or already in division II, like Malaysia, if they have better female players. For these top 10-12 candidates, they surely can take a fair shot at the title within this several yrs.
     
  3. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    :confused:

    Do you think it' fair to play for the 7th or 24th place.
    Do you think it's possible to interest media when a country can't win a competition...

    The big problem of this system is that is not make the right ranking.

    exemple 1 : Netherland, this year have the level to play the top5 but they're in the group2!!! They will go up, maybe next time they will not have a team to play at this level...

    exemple2 : this year poland is better than Norway or Austria, but Poland is in group 4 and the others , in the group 3!!!
    That's the same with Belgium and Swiss, Slovenia and Iceland...

    How can you defend a competition like that?

    The final ranking have no sence.

    That's not good for the badminton. That 's just good for the best countries, but that's sheet for badminton's world!!!
     
  4. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,397
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Hi Tech
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I think you should stop multi-posting the same thread to different forums. One thread is enough.

    As for the Sudiman Cup, I don't know off-hand, the original reasoning behind the draw but am sure that there is a reason for it otherwise all the other countries (members of IBF) would have done something about it. Remember that IBF is not just the big countries (China, Indonesia, Denmark, Malaysia, etc).
     
  5. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Personally, I do agree with the examples that u bring up in certain ways. However, I have the following comments:

    1. There's no perfect system/draw in this world. It's true that certain real talent will be left out under certain situation, however, there's no way to be perfect. Think about the "Mailman" being left out of the NBA all star game.

    2. The main reason that ur "talent" being leftout, also because they did not do well in S. cup (i am not saying must be last time, but, could be very well reflect their recent history in badminton, say, the past 1-3 events). If ur older team can't preserve a spot for u, who else u can complain?
    3. You might argu that what the "older" generation should do with the current ones, well, what about football (soccer), basketball, volleyball, etc? They always set the ranking say in world cup or champship game by the record of previous competitons. It's possible that the current team is much better than the one was 2 yrs ago, but, too bad... Remember the past world cup? Brazil did not have a high ranking when it starts, due to its poor performance in the qualification round (aginast S. American nations). Even though, a lot of ppl believe they are much better than they suppose to be, but, record is record. You can't change it, but just try harder next time, and prove it when u are on the stage.

    4. For ur example of Netherland, well, they do ahve a good team (women). However, at most they can only "participate" in div I. I really don't think they can ever pass China, Den, or Korea to even take a shot at the title. Also, they are at most be in equal level with the other 3 in div I, so, being the top in div II is fair for them. If they have a better men's team, that could be another story.

    5. For Poland, Aus, or Norway, it's very hard to say. How did u come with ur conclusion? Always remember, S. cup is "overall", not just an individual event. In Div III, IV, bascially all these nations have a long run (at least another 6+ yrs) to even being able to threat the top ones in Div I. Are their ranking really perfect? I don't know.

    6. For ur harsh critism, u only point out total of 4 teams (the 2 major examples) being unfairly ranked (let's say u are true about all 4 of them). 4 out of the entire 30+ nations, u can't say the entire draw is non-sense. There's no 0 error in the world. Also, most of ur examples (3 nations, maybe plus the "etc" ) are in Div III/IV or even beyond, I don't think any one of them even come close to Div I title contenders. How this case going to support ur idea of "a team have the level to be on the podium, that's not possible", and "protect big country"???
     
  6. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Well, if the nation only can whinning about not being get a "chance" to play, but not focus on training their players, they are simple "stupid".

    The championship belong to the ones (not only 1, but the top group), which are really deserve, and have a good chance to take a shot at the title.

    Being a US citizen, of course, I hope US can ever take a shot at that title. However, I know we are still kinda far away being the top ones in the world this yr. Therefore, I would rather enjoy myself watching some high performance from other real powers, while hope our team can move up ranking for next event.

    Well, in another 6 yrs or so (according to ur calculation), if US ever qualified to be promoted into div I, I will surely be a huge fan to cheer for them!
     
  7. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    Badminton is the only sport where only 6 nations can be World champion. For me that's not good for badminton.

    I think big countries are protected with this system because only 1 team can go down!!!

    I give to you the last ranking of Helvetia cup 2003 and you can see the big difference with the ranking group of SC.

    First Stage of qualification for the 2005 Sudirman Cup Finals

    Final ranking

    1º - France
    2º - Slovenia
    3º - Czech Republic
    4º - Portugal
    5º - Belgium
    6º - Iceland
    7º - Belarus
    8º - Switzerland
    9º - Hungary
    10º - Austria
    11º - Norway
    12º - Israel
    13º - Ireland
    14º - Cyprus
    15º - Estonia
    16º - Greece
    17º - Romania
    18º - Turkey
    19º - Faroe Islands


    I just gave 2 examples, but it's possible to find more...

    I can repeat SC system is not fair. Don't be too protective with IBF!!!

    And i repeat, I never see a sport where only 6 nations can be World champion.






    :mad:
     
  8. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Calm down... please don't be too offensive to directly point me to be "protective for IBF". As, i metioned in my previous post, I clearly support my US team to take a shot at the title, too. However, just be realistic and try to make the game be more competitive in the higher division(s).

    I am just expressing my feeling toward your comments, I could be totally wrong, but I am not protect or against anyone here or any organization:

    1. "I never see a sport where only 6 nations can be World champion": true. However, how many sports will test 5 events as a team with a totaly of 30+ or 40+ teams participate? And use the team's score as the std. to determine the result. Not for the sports which have major events, therefore, all ur example about soccer, tennis, nor basketball, volleyball, gymnastics, swimming, etc. Therefore, it's not fair to make a comparison with different standards.

    2. I can't say SC drawing can be perfect (already metioned) in my previous post. Sure, the score sheet u provide did have some difference than the current drawing, but as I metioned, SC drawing (same as other major sports events), is high depend on the history (not a history of 20 yrs, but recent events). A team might be doing well recently, does not support the idea it doing well consistently (Remember my "Brazil soccer team case"?), and previously (when ranking points counts).

    3. If a team really show it's strength in the competition, it will surely be promoted into higher divsion in the next SC. True, it will take some time, say a div 4 - team, it might take them 8-10 yrs to get into div I. However, do u ever expect a div IV team to have the ability to win SC within 2 yrs. Well, I really don't think so.

    4. It's true only 1 team can be down in SC div I. But how many u want? 3? Well, according to my knowledge, in major league (ex: soccer league, only 2 out of 16+ teams from div I will be send to div II). It's impossible to say over 30% (2+) teams out of original super powers to lower level. Also, the newly promoted div II will also have a tough time to face the real contenders, which make the game less competitive.
     
  9. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US

    For ur example, it did show some "mess" in div III or below. However, if a team really want to prove they can "Show", they should not be mind to wait for 2 more yrs, if say, they suppose be 1 div higher. If a team just be "hot" for several months or 1 yr, they don't deserve to be considered as a contender anyway.

    Once again, SC is a symbol for a reputable "dominating force" as a team, not a "flash light" kind all star for a single event.

    For a world championship event, do u pay more attention for the contenders (I do believe most Div I teams do their ability way over the ones u listed), or just the participants? I am not saying I am not respectful for teams just participate, but clearly, the attention should be focus on the "big matches".

    For example, the soccer world cup draw. We pay much more attention to the ones which are #1 or #2 seeds in the group. How many ppl really care about the bottom ones within the group. Sure, sometimes the "under dog" can put on a show, but most case, just a "flash light". How many times u see the contenders win the cup, and how many times u see the super underdog (say #15 or below) beat up everyone and win the cup?
     
  10. wl2172

    wl2172 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    1,209
    Likes Received:
    1
    Sudirman Cup is crap!!
    Stick to Thomas & Uber cup. This tournament have too many loopholes.
     
  11. Hugo

    Hugo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Electrical Engineer
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Yeah, but TC and UC only prove which country is best at men's or women's events, whereas the SC is the one that determines which nation can win BADMINTON as a whole, in both genders. It truly weeds out the nations who are adequate in only one gender.
    So, I think it provides a more realistic perspective on the real badminton superpower.
     
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    That's true.

    IF the level of many nations were more even, I am sure the rules would be altered. At the moment, the present system is a compromise.

    If and when badminton has a greater pool of individual players in other countries apart from the traditional 'powerhouses', then we'll be able to see interesting matches take place. Even M'sia, who have weaker ladies players, shrug their shoulders and just get on with trying to improve their players.

    The football world cup takes place every four years and is men only. Perhaps a true football world cup would include the womens teams as well as being every two years.
     
  13. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    This false ranking is not good for the badminton's development. Our sport have to be develop in all countries not only in Denmark and Asia.

    How can interest the media, the federation, the players when they know they only play for a 23th or 14th place????

    You say they can go up and after they can perform, but a federation wants to know the real ranking of his team. They want to know the effect of the politics. For the development of badminton in Poland, i think they prefer to be 15th and not 25th. That's a big difference...may be not for you.
    When a senior team play a WC that's to perform now, to know their ranking. That's not to prepare the team for 2010!!! That' not like under 15, under 17 or under19.

    Another example to show that SC and IBF system is crap :
    In Lausanne 1995, this team won their group and they normally can play in the next group 2 years after.
    Chinese-Taipei Australia
    Norway Poland Ukraine France Belarus Mauricius and Slovakia
    In Glasgow 1997, they played for the same ranking??? Why???
    Only because Malaysia didn't play in Lausanne, they took the place of a nation in group2... Then Chinese-Taipei Australia Norway Poland Ukraine France Belarus Mauricius and Slovakia, have to fight for the same ranking.:confused:
    Is it a fair system???


    FINAL RANKING ORDER
    OF 1995 CONTEST:
    1. China 2. Indonesia 3. Korea 4. Denmark 5. England 6. Thailand 7. Sweden
    8. Netherlands 9. Russia 10. Japan 11. Chinese-Taipei 12. Canada 13. Germany 14. Scotland
    15. Australia 16. New Zealand 17. Hong Kong 18. Austria 19. Norway 20. India 21. Finland
    22. Czech Rep 23. Poland 24. Switzerland 25. USA 26. Iceland 27. Ukraine 28. Wales
    29. Bulgaria 30. Ireland 31. France 32. Kazakhstan 33. Belgium 34. Hungary 35. Belarus
    36. Spain 37. Peru 38. Portugal 39. Pakistan 40. Mauritius 41. Israel 42. Slovenia
    43. Cyprus 44. Italy 45. Slovakia 46. Malta 47. Brazil 48. Argentina 49. Morocco

    FINAL RANKING ORDER
    OF 1997 CONTEST:
    1. China 2. Korea 3. Denmark 3. Indonesia 5. Sweden
    6. England 7. Malaysia 8. Germany 9. Chinese-Taipei 10. Netherlands
    11. Russia 12. Japan 13. Thailand 14. Canada 15. Scotland
    16. Australia 17. Hong Kong 18. New Zealand 19. India 20. Finland
    21. Norway 22. Austria 23. Ukraine 24. USA 25. Poland
    26. Wales 27. Iceland 28. Switzerland 29. Bulgaria 30. Czech Republic
    31. Belarus 32. Ireland 33. France 34. Spain 35. Portugal
    36. Peru 37. Kazakhstan 38. Belgium 39. Sri Lanka 40. Israel
    41. Slovenia 42. South Africa 43. Jamaica 44. Pakistan 45. Mauritius
    46. Guatemala 47. Italy 48. Cyprus 49. Slovakia 50. Mexico
    51. Brazil 52. Malta 53. Luxembourg 54. Argentina 55. Lithuania
    56. Estonia 57. Armenia 58. Greece 59. Chile

    I think IBF have to change this system or to cancel SC. May be they can onlo organise a competition with the best 6 nations.

    TC and SC are much more interesting.
     
  14. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    I agree that for individual players, they may only have very limited chances to perform in world stage. True, everyone want to take a shot at the champ title, but not just participate.

    However, if the "history" (again, not the history of 20 yrs ago, but recent competitions) shows that a certain team does not belong to the same group, why force to put them put on a pointless "one side" match? Say this, put the Poland team in Div I, and give them the "fair chance", and make the federation officers to be "really excited", can they ever win a single match??? well, I don't know.

    For ur example, poland. Ok, maybe they are better now, but according to ur record, i certainly did not see they were doing well in their group. If I am not mistaken, they even did not win their group. How we going to support the idea to move them up by a rank of 10 by that time? If they are really deserve to be the top 15, show it this year, instead of just saying, "we prefer" or "we hope" or just complain about the rules.
     
  15. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Again, if a federation really know what their proper ranking is, there's nothing wrong with participation. Sure, only 1 nation can be the champ, but everyone else should know what the difference is, and try to improve later.

    Put this way, if somehow, NBA final is between the 2 of the worst teams in the league (since they have strong front office, and complain about they never get a chance to show), do u think that will be interesting.

    Once again, let the skill do the talk, not keep whinning about why I only get a C instead of C+
     
  16. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    I agree that might heard the winning team of the lower group. Like I said, sorry, none of the system is perfect.

    However, where do u want to put Malaysia? They are a member of IBF, too. If they want to participate, we need to give them a space. Again, according to their record and ability, they definitely deserve to be in Div II. If u put them into Div III, they will kill everyone else, and going to Div II anyway. Is that going to help all the ones from Div III? I don't think so.

    Say, if u r the one putting the draw, where u going to put them? Div V? Give me a break...
     
  17. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    This example is not against Malaysia but it's just to show the limit of the system.

    IBF have to change the sysrem. That's all.

    You can speak about this system with other olympic's sport specialist, and you can see a big :p !!!

    IBF take a lot of very strange decision.

    Look the new scoring system. We try 5*9 and 5*7 during 1 year and they choose 3*15 for men and 3*11 for girls. Why??? :confused:
    Thats not very professional.

    I think IBF doesn't take the good decision for the badminton's development.
     
  18. Zhao

    Zhao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    stud
    Location:
    geneve
    I'm not from Poland but i know very well all the badminton nations, especially from Europe.

    For me a good system is a system where all the nations have the chance to have their real ranking at the date of the championship.

    I don't know if Poland can be 15th this year but we never know because they play for the 26th place.

    Another example, in october France(gr4) beat Germany(gr2). May be France can play Germany in 6 years but i don't think it 'll be the same team...

    How can you accept a system where the final ranking is not representing the level of the team. Except for the first 3.
     
  19. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    I clearly support ur idea about the scoring system.

    While, if someone once (fine, maybe twice) made a mistake, does not mean they must be wrong for other decisoins as well. Right? Still, SC drawing might contains bugs here or there, I agree with that. However, which system is not?

    Also, plz don't bring up the so-call "Oly. Specialist", if they truly understand the game of badminton, then badminton won't be just introduced in 92, and facing the possible "cut" in 2008.
     
  20. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    True, France defeated Germany recently. In my previous post, I metioned more than once, SC is the "overall" scale about a nation's badminton skill.

    Just 1 or 2 players, or 1 event can't determine the result. If I did not remember wrong, Wang Chen (HK) defeated most of chinese ladies in recent events, but we clearly can't rank HK beat China in SC ranking system.

    There's a difference between "all star" and "flash light". If anyone wants to prove they can really shine, but not just being hot for several months, show it consistently. Sooner or later, they will be accepted. If the other way, well, we respect them, but if dream to be considered as the real power by just 1 or 2 "shinny point", it can only draw laugh.
     

Share This Page