speed, anticipation and risk?

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by kwun, Nov 12, 2000.

  1. kwun

    kwun Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    41,048
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Occupation:
    BC Janitor
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    looking at the pros. they are all so "fast". they seem to know where their opponent wants to hit before the shuttle was struck and then get there before the shuttle does.

    how do they do that? anticipation? or is it speed? experience? good footwork? (they surely do make it look easy) or a combination of the above?
     
  2. tt

    tt Guest

    i think it's more of the sixth sense or instinct.This emanates from talent.It's juz inborn, only the priviledged few possess it.Of course the qualities u mentioned also counts esp. lightning reflexes.
     
  3. paul

    paul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    manager of sporting goods company
    Location:
    Taiwan
    I think rhythm and vision is very important. By rhythm I mean you should reach your base (there many different bases) at just the time he is going to hit. Watch his body language and racket swing and set your feet accordingly i.e if he in position to attack the feet should be parallel to the net - If he looks like he's going to lift high from the net you keep your racket to the rear e.t.c e.t.c. You can have a floating base as well if you are approaching the net after a smash or drop.

    Anticipation is about feet positioning not movement. If you anticipate by moving, a good opponent will see this and simply hit in the other direction. You take a guess at what the opponent can do and set your feet in the best way to cover the options he has. Reaching your base too early will often leave you flat footed and you will get stuck there. Also if you watch the pros they do a little bounce as their opponents hit. The timing of this bounce is extremely important. If the timing is wrong you'll be stranded. I think pro players have excellent observation of the opponents body language and racket movement (this comes by experience also). They know how to cover the options with appropriate foot positioning. Movement is economical and of course they are physically extremely fast, flexible and fit. I wonder how much is natural and how much is pure hard work ?

    There's so much to learn about footwork and there's an incredible amount of different strokes...but it all looks so beautifully simple when watching great players.
     
  4. kwun

    kwun Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    41,048
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Occupation:
    BC Janitor
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    thanks for the great analysis.

    i really think you hit the nail right on when you said anticipation is feet positioning and not movement. and that the little hop that the pro does is really crucial. everything makes a lot of sense.

    i also noticed that when the pros do the little hops, the last one is when the legs are spread the widest, leveraging the sideway force so they can reach shots on either side.
     
  5. MYSRH

    MYSRH Guest

    I was told that besides all the footworks, anticipation, etc, we have to stay focus on the shuttle, because abdminton is about deception, too. I apply this to a friend that always gives a exagerated movement as if he's about to serve high but it's only low or it may be really high, I get caught with his trick everytime until I applied staying focus on the shuttle and all his extra movement gives no effect at all.
     
  6. paul

    paul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    manager of sporting goods company
    Location:
    Taiwan
    For some time I tried focusing on the shuttle but I just couldn't react in time. Afterall the shuttle will only do what the racket tells it to do. Looking at the opponent's racket will always tell you where the shuttle is going unless the openent is extremely deceptive. To be honest I think the good players don't focus too much on the shuttle because it's very intuative. I seem to reach a lot more nowadays by closely watching the opponent's body language and his racket.
     
  7. marshall

    marshall Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Computer Security Manager
    Location:
    Louisiana, US
    Focussing on the shuttle and ignoring opponent's body language & racquet:
    I told a *very* experienced player that I agreed with this idea, because "the shuttle doesn't lie." He said "we could debate various philosophies of predicting the shot, but I always tell junior players I'm coaching 'If you don't see the shuttle and where it's going before it's 8 feet off the racquet, you'll be late.' So, whatever method you use, be sure you track the shuttle early."
    I try to concentrate on the shuttle as it comes off the opponent's racquet, and even
    point my racquet at the shuttle, as Lee Jae Bok recommends. This really helps when receiving doubles serves.

    The initial hop as opponent hits:
    Also called split step, this loads your leg muscles and makes the next hop, a big one, easier and faster. Any player can do this, not just the pros. It does help your
    reaction time.

    I just wish I could remember to do the above every time. Too much play and not enough drills, I guess :-(
     
  8. paul

    paul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    manager of sporting goods company
    Location:
    Taiwan
    I don't agree with that. You are saying that the earliest moment you can tell where the shuttle is going is as it comes off the racket ? That is too late ! The earliest moment is just before his racket makes contact with the shuttle. Of course much of the swing can be deception but just before contact - the racket doesn't lie ! If somebody is swinging their racket at 100mph until the point of contact you know it is a smash and you can ready yourself with a defensive stance. At the net you may have to wait a bit later until the shuttle is just coming off the opponents racket. Just tracking the shuttle you will be too late in reacting. I play in the same team as an malaysian ex-international and he almost ignores the shuttle completely because he is so intuitive. He knows exactly where the shuttle is going just by watching the opponent. Can you imagine receiving a smash from Peter Gade and only concentrating on the shuttle ? It would be on the floor before you move.

    Telling inexperienced players to watch the shuttle as soon as it leaves the racket may be a good thing because anyway they don't know where the shuttle is going by watching the opponent and it will make them react earlier - but this is no good for advanced players.

    For example - You hit an attacking clear into your opponents backhand. He turns round for the backhand and is late getting to the shuttle. He can't smash, his clear will probably be weak - so of course you move further in to the net on the backhand side and just watch out for a sneaky cross court or drive. Just watching the shuttle would not allow you take make this assumption.

    Let's take an example of a decptive shot. Ye Zhao Ying's reverse slice drop. It is incredibly deceptive. I guess if you were playing her and getting fooled everytime then your only option would be to ignore her body language in that area and focus very much on the shuttle - but you will still be late in getting the shuttle. If you could try to decipher her deception by really concentrating on the racket just before impact you would reach it much earlier.
     
  9. rainbow

    rainbow Guest

    I am thinking how you see a racket swing direction at that fast moment? I think even if you focus on the racket your eyes unconsciously tracking where the shuttle is too. Everyone does that, if not, how are you going to hit the shuttle? Think that what MYSRH was trying to say during the game, but during the serve especially in double it may be best to focus on the shuttle as marshall said.
     
  10. kwun

    kwun Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    41,048
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Occupation:
    BC Janitor
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    it really depends on how deceptive the shot was. some pros, notably Gong Zhichao, has exactly the same racket movements for the forehand shots. if you watch TV and depending on the angle of the shot, i sometimes can see her swing, yet, i didn't know what shot she played until i see the wide angle view of the court. all she needed was a little twist of the wrist. which is really really hard to spot considering how fast the shot is, and how far the racket is.

    so watching body and racket movement may be suspectible to deception from teh opponent.

    however, since unlikely any of us here are pros, (if you are, please let us know. :) and can make such perfect deceptive shots, so for *our* purposes, looking at the racket and body movement is probably good enough.

    timing is really the key though. one must move the very moment *after* the shot is made. any before, you are risking get tricked by a deceptive shot. and good timing is so difficult to achieve when it is more than 40 mins into a match, arms and legs are sore, sweat dripping everywhere and gasping for air and wondering why the atmosphere is only 20% oxygen at the same time....

    what a great sport! :)
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    23,844
    Likes Received:
    4,810
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    I have to agree with all of Paul's opinions but was Marshall just specifically referring to a doubles serve? Even pros get fooled by flick serves. I guess that with their strong wrists, the flick comes in at the very, very last moment so it's almost impossible to anticipate.
     
  12. vince poon

    vince poon Guest

    I too agree with paul, anticipating a shot after the shuttle leaving couple feet from racket is too late unless you are playing pady cake badminton. In a competitive badminton level you must learn how to decipher your opponent body language and motion of the stroke. Once that is decipherrd, you need a proper base (split step) and footwork. I think everybody oppinion is valid to certain point but at the world class level paul is correct in my oppinion.
     
  13. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,811
    Likes Received:
    23
    Occupation:
    Surfing, reading fan mails:D, Dilithium Crystal hu
    Location:
    Basement Boiler Room
    great topic, but of course, i have opinions on everything, hehe :).
    Anticipation, it one skill that separate a good player from a international tournament player, assuming both have same phyiscal and racket skills. Anticipation come from experience, it is a mental thing. Coaching helps speed up the learning process but experience from playing many many players that help build up one database on your opponents. Top players, who know will be in the semi final, watch tapes of all their potential opponents, learning and remembering each of their unique moves and deception, their weakness and strength. Information (knowledge) is key at top top level. It is an edge one can have on one opponent. I know poul erik larsen watches tapes of heryanto arbi over and over again to decipher H. arbi jump smash versus jump drop versus jump attack clear. Hey, it worked, PE Larsen beat HA in ?? all england.

    On the topic of whether to follow the shuttle or the racket or the body, there are all correct, it depends at what level one is learning at the moment. Following the shuttle is a way to learn anticipation skill, because it is easiest, just following one object. The next level of learning anticipation is following rackets, then working up anticipation skill to read body and leg position of your opponents.

    The more ahead you can read your opponent the better but everyone has to learn anticipation in small steps. For example, if i hit a shuttle to rear back hand of an inexperience player, i can relax because i "know" he/she won't even return the shuttle over net. That is one extreme form of anticipation. However, to read a top ranking player of the same play, because of his ability, the clues are minimal but it's there, making for me an average player hard to read. But for top players, they can read those minor clues.
     

Share This Page