Physics - Impossible not to hit it over the net

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Phil, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    That presumes either
    a) there is no gravity, or
    b) you hit the bird with an infinite amount of force

    since neither is theoretically possible, i'd suggest your physics teacher take fewer trips to his private herb garden :D

    I also think his idea that a soft-clear = drop isn't great either. If you are dropping from back court, you want the bird to drop as fast as possible so long as it's close to the net, rather than hug the net as much as possible at the cost of a slow drop. Why? Because if you are off a little either way, you will either end up losing the rally or put yourself into a position where you'll lose the rally.
     
  2. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Quick physics: (presume shuttle is a point mass, and is hit directly forward)

    forward force: your swing
    backward force: air resistence
    upward force: none
    downward force: gravity

    how fast bird moves forward is determined by how fast (exponentially) and hard (proportionally) you swring, and the shuttle's speed (inverselexponentially)

    how fast the bird drops is determined by gravity only.

    thus, whether the bird will make it over the net is solely determined by how long it takes the bird to travel over the net.

    If you consider real world situations, his logic is even worse off since the aerodynamics of a shuttle could only push it down even faster if it's hit forward.

    If you are very short (1 feet maybe? ;)) and contact the bird below the net, it's IMPOSSIBLE to hit over the net.

    If you are tall enough to contact the bird above the net, regardless how much higher, it's possible to either hit it over or hit under the tape of the net, as determined by a lot of factors (height of contact, amount of force you apply, air resistence, etc.)

    If he means it's impossible to hit it under the net if you hit with enough force, then his statement is merely stating itself. It's akin to saying it's impossible to run faster than a car if you run slow enough.


    I think his example is only going to cause confusion when his pupils start taking physics. Maybe he should stick with badminton examples.
     
  3. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Some types of shots are more effective than others against different people. I think a soft drop is OK to change the 'pace' of the rally. Combined with a slightly different shuttle position, a person may be forced into an error when retreiving such a shot.

    Even in International matches, sometimes you might see this shot. The trick is when to use such a shot for effectiveness.
     
  4. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    I'm definitely not saying he shouldn't teach a soft drop. There are situations where they come in quite handy. I'd personally prefer fast drops most often however. I just wanted to point out his physics example is sure to give more problems than benefits.

    I've seen very few international tournaments by the way, but from what I have seen, the soft drop is not the "default" drop. His coach seems to be advocating the use of soft-drops as the standard drop.
     
    #24 bigredlemon, Dec 30, 2002
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2002
  5. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    The 'soft drop' is a basic and fundamental skill. If I were to coach this would be a shot that I teach to beginners. It's easy to learn but somewhat difficult to master. As for the fast drop, I would not recommend until one can do the 'soft drop' well.

    I think is only advantageous to be able to do 'soft drop' and fast drop. Reason is something that's discussed here often - the change of pace during the game.
     
  6. iwannaeatkimmy

    iwannaeatkimmy Regular Member

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    thank god finally what i was trying to say in a lot nicer english. gj man
     
  7. jwu

    jwu Regular Member

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    I might need to see the exact physics formula to understand what the coach meant by "no matter what" you won't hit the net. If you aim at the service line, that gives yourself a bigger margin for error so the chance of you clipping the net is less than say if you are aiming for just above the tape. I can understand that mentality. It's like the more you want to avoid something, you somehow hit it anyway. therefore if you are always conscious about hitting the tape, chances are, you are gonna hit the tape, so what the coach is essentiallly saying is "stop thinking about the tape." :D
     
  8. Phil

    Phil Regular Member

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    Yes! That's exactly what this is!

    Phil
     
  9. crazyboy139

    crazyboy139 Regular Member

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    I believe hes talking about projectile motion?
    Where something is launched from one place and gravity does its work and slowly curves down.
    Yes?
    Even though I'm just learning projectile now, my physics is quite crappy, so.. yea..

    Think going over the net, depends on how hard u hit it, and the angle.
    Anyone (nearly) can hit it over their head, but if the angle of which the bird is launched (with respect to an invisible parallel line to the ground) is too big, ie 90, then it'd go straight up. If the angle isn't big, and u hit it really lightly, then it'd go over your head, then back down. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Phil

    Phil Regular Member

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    I don't know, he may be talking about this projectile motion. I won't be seeing him again for about half a month.

    Well, the angle you are hitting the shuttle it is the same as your own clear. What this is, I don't know exactly, but I'd hazard a guess of about 70 to 80 degrees in relation to the floor. Or, 20 to 10 degrees from a line that goes vertically up and down with your body. Same thing, different perspective.

    Phil
     
  11. tranvi007

    tranvi007 Regular Member

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    I'm a Physics 25 IB Student!!!

    I think u have really misunderstood wat he said. If u were to hit it as hard as u can above your head, u can easily hit the net, even with full power. One is that your angle to too high, lets say 80 degrees. It would go real high and then fall down. At 90 it'll just go straight up. 45 gives u the farthest distance. But in a game i'm sure people hit the net even though they didn't intend to and that it's over there head.
     
  12. paulchow

    paulchow Regular Member

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    maybe you miss understood your teacher. obviously if the bird is struck above your head with very little initial velocity towards the other side--even if its at a perfect 45 degree angle--it won't always go over. and like others have said hitting the bird very hard at a near vertical angle won't put the bird over the net either :)
     
  13. Troncheur

    Troncheur Regular Member

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    an analogy in driving skill

    That's what i understood. For my job, i had to go to a 2 day session learning driving's risks and security aspects.
    The teacher was telling us that, if you stare at something on the road (car, anything dangerous, ...), your brain will force your body, so your arms, to go to this thing. We had practical exercises during this sessions and i can assure you that this concept is tremendous.

    Your teacher was maybe saying the same thing. Try to aim after the net not to take the risk that your brain succeeds in hitting it despite your strength and ability.
     
  14. Brianzabad

    Brianzabad Regular Member

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    Here the equation.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG](8)


    [​IMG](9)​

    It is easy to see from eq. that, given the will of the player to shoot higher than the net, the bird won't finish in the net.

    In order to understend if "taller the player then higher the shot" (obviously if the tall player really wants to do it), the phisicians are still struggling with proper equation. :mad: :p :rolleyes:
     
  15. Frodo The Frog

    Frodo The Frog Regular Member

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    hmmmm .....

    According to these equations the shuttle appears to be a harmonic oscillator which encapsulates a tunneling probability, so the shuttle may go through the net, without actually touching it !

    Looks like we may also be dealing with anti-shuttles ... wouldnt want to come into contact with one of those ... one moment Frodo hits shuttle, next moment Frodo and shuttle ... poof !!! .. no more, and opponent (maybe Brianzabad) wins ;-)
     
  16. Brianzabad

    Brianzabad Regular Member

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    True!

    And, according with bad-quanta theory, the shuttle-oscillator should simultaneously pass over and under the net... :eek:

    Well, Einstein said: "God doesn't play dices and badminton" ;)
     
  17. Frodo The Frog

    Frodo The Frog Regular Member

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    symapthies

    now I am beginning to feel sorry for the match referee ... was it in or out, under or over .. whos point is it ... more in then out .. oh dear :eek: :confused: !!!
     
  18. chibe_K

    chibe_K Regular Member

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    When I practice, I follow this technique and my partner said my drop was good. When I play, it never works because opponents are often quick enough to reach the net before the shuttle does. So, I think angle is the key for drop shot.

    Maybe the coach is trying to correct your habbit by hitting too low into the net.
     
  19. New_Guy04

    New_Guy04 Regular Member

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    if it's IMPOSSIBLE to not hit the net, how come peter gade, and the rest of the world hits the net sometimes?:confused:
     
  20. Phil

    Phil Regular Member

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    Haven't been around BF for a few weeks, didn't see that this post got revived.

    I think you're taking it out of context. I don't mean that it is really actually impossible to hit the net, this much is obvious. What I was told was that by the method I was being shown at the time, it was physically impossible to hit the net. It's hard to explain. Whatever the case, my drop shots improved very much after that. This obviously doesn't apply to slices.

    Anyhow, this was from so far back that I can't really remember much about it.

    Phil
     

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