Mohd Ahsan / Hendra Setiawan

Yoji said:
Obviously AhsanHendra is a better 'pair' than CaiFu. Its just that they dont play their youths together. At AhsanHendra age, CaiFu can barely keep up. Longevity is crucial since they more or less same number of titles. HS probably have more titles than CaiFu anyway.
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Obviously not :D they have less of all significant titles/majors. While Hendra's longevity is remarkable, Cai still comes from a different generation of Chinese players where normal retirement age was actually before 30 due to the battering their bodies took early in their career already. It's not entirely apples to apples when talking about age - also having had heart surgery might have sth to do with him not playing until 35 :D
Anyway, there's no rational argument you can make as to why Ahsan/Setiawan are a better pair.
Hendra can be ranked above Cai as an individual player, which I'd tend to agree with. Very different types of player, but his sustained success (or rather his numerous comebacks) edges it to Hendra imop.

Correction: they have the same number of AE titles, and fewer OG/WC medals. Significantly fewer.
 
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Yoji said:
Well you cant even appreciate someone who has 3 medal with different partners yet you can say ZN is the best when in fact he just got Lucky in OG/WC MD, other than that what have he won? I can say 100% for sure Fu/Zhang isnt even better pair than GohTan. They were smashed in the groupstages and just got lucky.
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Never said ZN was the best, but don't let the truth get in your way when going on another nationalistic fan boy rant
Also, winning 2 finals is just lucky and the same as winning 1 QF? So minions' AE titles are meaningless by that logic? Don't be ridiculous.
 
Yoji said:
Well you cant even appreciate someone who has 3 medal with different partners yet you can say ZN is the best when in fact he just got Lucky in OG/WC MD, other than that what have he won? I can say 100% for sure Fu/Zhang isnt even better pair than GohTan. They were smashed in the groupstages and just got lucky.
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But Fu/Zhang is leading in their head to head against Ahsan/Hendra 5 - 3 even when FHF was past his prime. That wasn't lucky.
Goh/Tan? Oh please.. they were the ones who got lucky in Rio.

And it wasn't ZN's fault that Ahsan/Saputro choked in the final wasn it? And to think that ZN's partner was LC at that time.

Wouldn't say Ahsan/Hendra won the AE without getting lucky in draw either.
 
j4ckie said:
Obviously not :D they have less of all significant titles/majors. While Hendra's longevity is remarkable, Cai still comes from a different generation of Chinese players where normal retirement age was actually before 30 due to the battering their bodies took early in their career already. It's not entirely apples to apples when talking about age - also having had heart surgery might have sth to do with him not playing until 35 :D
Anyway, there's no rational argument you can make as to why Ahsan/Setiawan are a better pair.
Hendra can be ranked above Cai as an individual player, which I'd tend to agree with. Very different types of player, but his sustained success (or rather his numerous comebacks) edges it to Hendra imop.

Correction: they have the same number of AE titles, and fewer OG/WC medals. Significantly fewer.
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So only OG/WC counts it? i thought as individual , you didnt appreciate ahsan achievements lol.

If CaiFu is better or Cai individually, you can post in his board. Of course , CaiFu is better than Fu/Zhang or LiuZhang. Its the only combination China is good at.

What is significant titles? To me all the titles are significant. Talking to people who dont admit defeat haha lol.
 
j4ckie said:
Never said ZN was the best, but don't let the truth get in your way when going on another nationalistic fan boy rant
Also, winning 2 finals is just lucky and the same as winning 1 QF? So minions' AE titles are meaningless by that logic? Don't be ridiculous.
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Gifted by the Net, that is lucky. If Minions only have 2AE, i will also say that is only luck but thanks god they have 20 titles plus AG title. Counting the number, that is already equal or more than CaiFu titles
 
Yoji said:
So only OG/WC counts it? i thought as individual , you didnt appreciate ahsan achievements lol.

If CaiFu is better or Cai individually, you can post in his board. Of course , CaiFu is better than Fu/Zhang or LiuZhang. Its the only combination China is good at.

What is significant titles? To me all the titles are significant. Talking to people who dont admit defeat haha lol.
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Of course to you all titles are significant, otherwise you can't support your nationalistic fanboy argument that the minions are the best ever (which they haven't shown so far). With every additional post where you try to downplay the big tournaments you add more proof of your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of true competition. The true goal, and highest level of competition, is the big tournament that everyone prepares for. That's the OG, WC, and to a lesser extent AE. Those are the big ones. And while there's certainly importance to winning other (big) titles, they aren't _as_ important. Ahsan has been pretty successful with Hendra and no one is denying that at all, but they haven't achieved even close to the same that Cai/Fu did. It's irrefutable.

BTW you're the one who brought up Cai/Fu, I didn't mention them as a pair. There was a discussion about different players where Fu came up individually, but I understand how a rational discussion with a mutually respectful exchange of opinions and ideas is beyond your comprehension and experience. The main topic was always the players that form the pair this thread is about, so your frequent comment of "post in their board!!1!11" doesn't apply....as usual. If you don't compare someone's achievements (in competition) to anyone else's, they're meaningless. It's the context and comparison that lends them meaning and importance.

Or in terms you might understand - haha lol XD roflmao.
 
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j4ckie said:
Of course to you all titles are significant, otherwise you can't support your nationalistic fanboy argument that the minions are the best ever (which they haven't shown so far).
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Eh, I thought he is a Singaporean like his location suggest. Am I wrong?
 
j4ckie said:
Of course to you all titles are significant, otherwise you can't support your nationalistic fanboy argument that the minions are the best ever (which they haven't shown so far). With every additional post where you try to downplay the big tournaments you add more proof of your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of true competition. The true goal, and highest level of competition, is the big tournament that everyone prepares for. That's the OG, WC, and to a lesser extent AE. Those are the big ones. And while there's certainly importance to winning other (big) titles, they aren't _as_ important. Ahsan has been pretty successful with Hendra and no one is denying that at all, but they haven't achieved even close to the same that Cai/Fu did. It's irrefutable.

BTW you're the one who brought up Cai/Fu, I didn't mention them as a pair. There was a discussion about different players where Fu came up individually, but I understand how a rational discussion with a mutually respectful exchange of opinions and ideas is beyond your comprehension and experience. The main topic was always the players that form the pair this thread is about, so your frequent comment of "post in their board!!1!11" doesn't apply....as usual. If you don't compare someone's achievements (in competition) to anyone else's, they're meaningless. It's the context and comparison that lends them meaning and importance.


Haha lol XD roflmao.
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Of course to you only WC/OG is important since there is no other titles you can talk about :) so weak and i'm not interested in AhsanHendra WC titles. Its important they win enought titles to validate any WC titles that they won, if not,,, no point.

CaiFu is simply not good enough as old pair. Not as good as AhsanHendra or Boe/Mo. Cai was dominated at 2012-2013. Cant be said with AhsanHendra who is still in top form at this age, which is older than CaiFU then. So i'd say they are top 5 modern pair.

One thing that comes to my mind is they cant even win their home tournament, ChinaOpen. Big regrets there.
 
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minions said:
Eh, I thought he is a Singaporean like his location suggest. Am I wrong?
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I really don't care, but he always praises Indonesian MD way harder than is contextually appropriate. So while he may or may not be Indonesian himself, there is pretty obvious nationalistic bias involved.
 
Yoji said:
Of course to you only WC/OG is important since there is no other titles you can talk about :) so weak and i'm not interested in AhsanHendra WC titles. Its important they win enought titles to validate any WC titles that they won, if not,,, no point.

CaiFu is simply not good enough as old pair. Not as good as AhsanHendra or Boe/Mo. Cai was dominated at 2012-2013. Cant be said with AhsanHendra who is still in top form at this age, which is older than CaiFU then. So i'd say they are top 5 modern pair.
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So now only performing after 30 counts? So minions haven't achieved anything at all so far? The problem with applying inconsistent semi-logic to others is that it can always wreck your own favorites.
I'm curious as to what makes Ahsan/Setiawan more successful than Cai/Fu. Is it the fewer WC, fewer OG medals/titles (not even half as many), is it the fewer tour titles (SS/PSS/Super 750+), or what? Or is winning one title after 34 the all-defining criterion for you, in which case - again - the minions aren't even in the discussion for good pairs, let alone great ones...?

No one is denying you the right to like those two pairs the most, but you won't find a set of consistent criteria after which they're the 2 best. Unless the first criterion is "be shorter than the average man" or "be Indonesian".


And back to the thread topic - in case it wasn't already clear, I don't have Ahsan/Setiawan in my Top10 MD pairs of all time. Certainly some of the best of their time, no doubt, but that OG implosion really took them out of the discussion for me - so far. But maybe they surprise us all in 2020 :D
For now, Hendra should probably rest, though. There's an entire year of qualification ahead and that 3rd INA pair is not weak or far behind...
 
j4ckie said:
No one is denying you the right to like those two pairs the most, but you won't find a set of consistent criteria after which they're the 2 best. Unless the first criterion is "be shorter than the average man" or "be Indonesian".
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Hey it's not as if they wished to be shorter than average. That's not fair:cool:

Ahsan/Hendra just teamed up a bit later because Kido bailed out before that. Maybe if they had been paired sooner they would have achieved more. Then again, they were disrupted by Ahsan's back injury too so yeah that's why I don't think he is one of the strongest because of his physicality. But his attacks are definitely most effective to make up for his frailty. Pair it up with Hendra, perfect combination.
 
j4ckie said:
And back to the thread topic - in case it wasn't already clear, I don't have Ahsan/Setiawan in my Top10 MD pairs of all time. Certainly some of the best of their time, no doubt, but that OG implosion really took them out of the discussion for me - so far. But maybe they surprise us all in 2020 :D
For now, Hendra should probably rest, though. There's an entire year of qualification ahead and that 3rd INA pair is not weak or far behind...
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So who's in your top 10, may I ask ? since 2000's, I would say only cai/fu, kdm/htk, and maybe tony/candra being better than them. maybe lyd/jjs too, but that's it.
 
yuquall said:
Hey it's not as if they wished to be shorter than average. That's not fair:cool:

Ahsan/Hendra just teamed up a bit later because Kido bailed out before that. Maybe if they had been paired sooner they would have achieved more. Then again, they were disrupted by Ahsan's back injury too so yeah that's why I don't think he is one of the strongest because of his physicality. But his attacks are definitely most effective to make up for his frailty. Pair it up with Hendra, perfect combination.
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Count your lucky stars Kido bailed at all, or else we might have seen a physically inadequate pair trudge along another 2 years or so - Setiawan doesn't seem to be the type to end a partnership because he blames the other player for their lack of results (although he should have, in that one). Just speculation on my part, though, I cant claim to have a lot of insight into his personality at all :D But what a fortunate combination of events, both Ahsan and Setiawan being available at the same time, and Hendra willing to return to PBSI...


MezzL said:
So who's in your top 10, may I ask ? since 2000's, I would say only cai/fu, kdm/htk, and maybe tony/candra being better than them. maybe lyd/jjs too, but that's it.
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Only going back to strictly 2000 seems a bit narrow, I'll consider earlier WC/OG years as well (even though I didnt watch anything live back then, it's still pretty well-documented and roughly comparable).
In no particular order - I'd put KDM/HTK, CY/FHF, LYD/JJS, LYD/YYS, BoMo, MK/HS, Tony/Candra, Sigit/Candra, Kim/Park, Rexy/Ricky above them.
Some of these are obviously debatable, and I haven't gone far back in time (one might put Li YongBo/Tian BingYi above them as well, for example), but personally I think it's very very hard to compare anything before the mid-80s at the earliest to today's badminton, the lack of WC and OG tournaments and overall smaller circuit and lessened competition makes it very subjective (not to mention China wasn't competing in the IBF until 1981), but this is a list based on a mix of preferences and achievements. Ahsan/Hendra are certainly very close to that, probably just outside the Top10 at 11 or 12. I certainly see why someone would put them into their personal Top10, although I dont see a coherent objective argument at this point in time for a objective Top3 spot (yet) or them even being in the GOAT discussion.

If youre only going from 2000 onwards, they're certainly Top10 by almost any criteria.
 
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Yeah, as a pair - not. But as a front player hendra is (at least for me) within the top 5.

Ahsan is a really good player, no one denies that I think. He maybe a 8 out of 10. Hendra maybe a 9 if the pole position is blocked to the goat. Ahsan just suits hendra fine. In my eyes mostly because he can stick to a gameplan and because of his quikness. Hendras game relies on anticipation and touch not on being speedy himself. So in my eyes he needs someone who sometimes gets hendra out of trouble if he miscalculates and someone who "knows his job" for making anticipation of the opponents options easier.

And this ahsan is doing still pretty well.

Is this granting them a spot in the goat discussion as a pair? I don't think so. Maybe top 10. Hendra alone maybe rated higher if you only count net players.

Are they my actually favorite pair to watch: absolutely. I simply love to see their capabilities in the first 3 shots and hendras anticipation skills. And I am a big fan of his behaviors on court. Always calm, always friendly. For me within this lies more beauty then just hit-hard-from-dusk-till-dawn pairs or the look-how-awesome-i-am-kevin. (who acts like a real "Kevin" on court).
 
skeksis said:
Yeah, as a pair - not. But as a front player hendra is (at least for me) within the top 5.

Ahsan is a really good player, no one denies that I think. He maybe a 8 out of 10. Hendra maybe a 9 if the pole position is blocked to the goat. Ahsan just suits hendra fine. In my eyes mostly because he can stick to a gameplan and because of his quikness. Hendras game relies on anticipation and touch not on being speedy himself. So in my eyes he needs someone who sometimes gets hendra out of trouble if he miscalculates and someone who "knows his job" for making anticipation of the opponents options easier.

And this ahsan is doing still pretty well.

Is this granting them a spot in the goat discussion as a pair? I don't think so. Maybe top 10. Hendra alone maybe rated higher if you only count net players.

Are they my actually favorite pair to watch: absolutely. I simply love to see their capabilities in the first 3 shots and hendras anticipation skills. And I am a big fan of his behaviors on court. Always calm, always friendly. For me within this lies more beauty then just hit-hard-from-dusk-till-dawn pairs or the look-how-awesome-i-am-kevin. (who acts like a real "Kevin" on court).
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I think the vast majority will agree with putting Hendra within the Top5 of net players of all time. His accomplishments certainly qualify him for that. Personally, I really understand if someones rates him above CY, for example, although I cant really decide one way or the other quite clearly. He certainly outranks LYD, in my book, for he has shown none of the susceptibility to pressure of big events and expectations, and the sheer amount of success puts him slightly above TG in my eyes as well. I even think one can make a very solid case for rating him the best net player of all time.
I fully agree with you on the personality comment - I also appreciate his calmness and concentration (at least outwards :D), and the way he never gets into disagreements or tries to mindgame opponents. There will never be a base for discussion whether he could've done this without mind games or disruption tactics - he simply outplayed a lot of great opponents.
On that note, I'll add the 2008 OG final to my watch list when I string rackets the next time :D
 
Well to me Hendra is a bit too wooden for my liking, but I really appreciate it in the final yesterday when he came alive and was pumped up after each point. Proved to be very effective and he became much less error prone.

Anyway, tomorrow Ahsan/Hendra will play in Swiss Open against DEN pair Bay-Smith/Molhede in R1, if they won it there is a chance that in R2 they will face yet again the GER pair LAmfuss/Seidel they played in AE.
 
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