In response to the thread... I'm opened to all possibilities here. You have a good analysis of the game and a good theory, but yes it's still a theory (to those who ask for proof, if he had proof he wouldn't have called it "conspiracy theory," he would call it "conspiracy"). Agreeing with your points, when I was watching the final game, I see Candra and Sigit so content to defend in the game. It's not like they played in the Malaysian Open against Fu/Cai or in the Singapore Open against Boe/Mogensen, where they changed their defense into attack, and took the rallies. I also remember the 2003 WC final when they played against Paaske/Rasmussen, they were so into the game...they fought for every point but was unable to keep it up and lost the title. They seemed greatly disappointed having lost the title. But in the 2005 WC final, they seemed relaxed as if they saw the lost coming. Tony/Howard are good players, but I havent seen them in a tournament where they passed the first couple rounds. Yet in the biggest tournament of the year, in the US, they crushed every pair on their way to the final. Disagreeing with your points, I think the reason why US won is because, yes, Tony Gunawan is on their side. Tony's a tremendous player who won the Olympic with Candra and WC2001 with Halim. Howard may seem like a "filler" but he has world class skills. It was a great game finals day, especially with Indonesia taking the singles and mix titles. I don't really know what to think...it may all be a coincidence? perhaps all these are random facts put together into a theory? Sigit/Candra will take the China Masters/Indonesia Open? P.S. Don't delete this thread. It's an opinionated thread and the_way has the right to express his opinions. He's brave person in my eyes.
Well, technically, all of this year's winners are all Asian or Asian-descent, no?? Tony and Howard are just "playing" under the "U.S." flag. Regarding the Taiwanese gal, Cheng Shao-Chieh, I myself was not at all that familiar with her until scchang(Sean Chang) told me about her. When he told me that she won the Junior World Championship last year(2004), beating out 2 of China's up-and-coming WS player to win the tournament, as well as reaching the QF of last year's Olympics, i decided to take a look at her playing. And to my surprise she really opened up my eyes. As the winner of 2004 Junior WC, beating Wang Chen(which she just played recently but lost in the S'pore Open http://www.intbadfed.org/Portal/des...20/20054374&chosenclass=WS&competitorid=14864)wasn't a real surprise to me, nor making it a rubber setter against XieXF(which she just played recently but lost in the Japan Open http://www.intbadfed.org/Portal/des...04/20054370&chosenclass=WS&competitorid=14864. Earlier ChengSC won over WongMC(Malaysia' best), then beat Juliane Schenk(who beat Zhou Mi), I mean she didn't win the 2004 Junior WC and reaching the QF of the Olympics for nothing. But i guess XieXF's experience, physique and stamina won her over ChengSC. Saying that, i'm sure if China could've sent their MS, who won the MS Junior WC last year, who knows, he could've made the same surprises also... Again, the reasons why this topic is buzzing is because of the 3-4 *speculative* reasons i just mentioned(which basically i heard from other people) plus a bunch of others...
Bad fans, no cheering. Fans of the fix, The fix was not executed perfectly; in XD the Chinese were supposed to win the second game and lose the first and third and Lin Dan was supposed to score 5 points in the first round, not 3 -- very impolite of him. The crowd was fixed. The umpires and linesmen and city of Los Angeles/Anaheim were fixed, but unfortunately, not the drafty conditions. They were never fixed. Also, as you have pointed out, the Indos were supposed to win, and they didn't. Oh, and also, the Danes were supposed to win, and they didn't. Oh, and also, the other Indos were supposed to win and they didn't. Oh, and also the Malaysians were supposed to win, and THEY didn't. I am sure you have reems of proof since you kindly took the time to impune the IBF and all it's players. Would you kindly produce it? Kompas, Xinhua, the New Straits Times, and the Copenhagen Post are anxiously waiting. I am too. Oh, wait, it's the burden of the rest of the world to prove the unprovable. A difficult task indeed. Try, for instance, proving there is a God - or not a God, your choice. Come to think of it, no wonder they didn't fix the draft, the fix was in. I, for one, would like to thank all of the MD participants, but especially Chandra/Sigit for giving up being able to retire in luxury and as at least minor legends of the sport in exchange for the good of badminton and of the hope of allowing the US to begin to dominate the sport that has so long been controlled by China and Indonesia. Truly, they are gentlemen. To those who are aurally arroused, Is concentration a skill in badminton? Does it take more or less concentration to play in an uncomfortable environment? Should the IBF initiate a decibel rating beyond which matches will not be played? Is there a chance we can build courts inside a sound dampened chamber with diffuse lighting, no draft, no crowd and 5 cameras inside? The umpire and linesmen could make there judgements from the cameras. Then the players can finally be left in peace. Is it easier to train the badminton fan base to be quiet or to have the players adjust? Surely, our beloved badminton athletes are capable of doing what football, basketball, the other football and hockey athletes can do, that is, concentrate? Badminton already has some difficult ground to cover when competing for the dollars that drive other sports. Witness the possible IBF rule changes and the recent failure of some large Chinese tournaments to pick up local television coverage. Telling the crowd they are not welcome to cheer is unlikely to improve that situation. Quite the opposite, I think. I hear there is little cheering during Tennis. Perhaps that would be more enjoyable to the aurally sensitive. Ballet is another popular venue. For ballet, see www.bolshoi.ru For tennis, I suggest www.wimbledon.org Best of luck. Bad_fan
Your first point is one that most if not all people are wondering about also. Seemed like Candra&Sigit prefer to just defend rather than be on the offensive. Lifting more shuttles as "bait" and making numerous errors which they should not do. Imagine, based on Star Sports statistics, Tony and Howard made 2x more errors than Candra/Sigit and yet they still prevail. Whether "Candra/Sigit seemed relaxed as if they saw the lost coming", i don't know about that. But for sure, many people thought it didn't look like they put their best effort out there. My other thought is this, since they won the WC before in 1997, i'm sure they would like to get this one as well. But i don't know, maybe they just feel like their mission of beating JR/LP is "enough". Plus you have to realize, they are now nearing the end of their career in Pelatnas and most likely think about their playing future career more. You are probably right, that maybe this is all a coincidence-who knows??.. Lastly, no, Candra&Sigit will not be participating in this year's China's Masters(many of the top players won't be attending). They as well as the rest of the Indo top players will be waiting for the rest of the other top players in the Indonesian Open next month. Hey, maybe Tony and Howard will be debuting there as the current WC winners..
Oh wow...So none of the fans in the USA know anything about BIG tournaments now is it. Excuse us for not being as worldly and blessed as you are. Geez, the nerve of some people. We may not get alot of top players to play here in the US, but that does not make us ignorant. Some of us have actually traveled to other countries to watch GP's, when Hong Ta Shan was sponsoring the US Open, we had quite a few top players here. And don't forget the 1996 Olympics was played here as well. So please don't preach to us from your high horse.
Well, don't worry about it lah, Malaysia will have a chance to shine in 2007 and i'm sure you will be out there yelling out for your support of Malaysian players...
errmm...there are a few of u guys out there quite surprise of Cheng Hsao hsieh semi final appearance. To most of the women single players, i dont think they are surprise at all because they know Cheng has made it to last year quarter final Olympic and also a few quarter final appearances in Open tournament. maybe u guys are underestimating Hsao Hsieh capability due to her height and also do not take notice of her good run in a few tournaments before. No wonder so many of you are surprise!!! But i am sad that she beat mew choo
This unknown Taiwan player Cheng Shao-Chieh was just a quarter finalist in the Olympic games (lost to Gong Ruina), is the World Junior LS champion, event held here in Vancouver. She is very fast on court, tactically very intelligent and apparently not shy of the public or stressed by the competition. She is not a beginner and it's not really too big a surprise to see her in the finals. Had you watched her play here in Vancouver, you would admire this girl's coolness and determination - she played mixed doubles and though lost, she really made an impact. She defended most of the hard smashes (whereas the boy failed to return as successfully as her) directed to her and sometimes even covered the boy. She is really incredible. One day she played a very tough XD match which went to rubber set and lasted for about 1H30 and won. In about 30 mins she was on court again to play her singles match against the Chinese #1 junior player. The admirable thing is she also won in 3 sets. This tells you something about this girl. A player to watch in the near future. On Lin Dan performance in the finals, should his opponent were also another Chinese player and not Taufik, surely the rumour being a fix would be flying all over... But since the opponent was Taufik it's a bit harder to talk about fix.
Hi Adel, Wow, you still alive and enjoying your life in USA . Honestly, happy to hear from you again and miss your ramblings here. Yes, I know Halim joined Tony in US, but you know often in drills you need more than 1 to spar against you. For example, if Tony practiced with Bach in doubles, they need strong opposition to bring their level out and Halim alone is not enough. Maybe 2 or 3 more Halims would be ideal and that's the reason why I said Tony was just outstanding. Hey, nice to hear from you and hope to hear again soon. Take care.
Yes, she basically was playing loosey-goosey out there..Seemed not nervous at all..Too bad she ran out of gas in the 3rd set, must be from all the excitement of doing jumpsmashes in the 1st set.. Totally agree!!One to watch out for..and still 19 yrs. young!.. well, we've already heard that before, no new news..remember AE2005 or the rumor swirling around prior to the matches to last year's Olympics of China's WD match fixing??..
Hello everyone, I wanted to give my two cents regarding the idea of a conspiracy to help the US win in badminton. First of all, no matter how miraculous something seems to be, it doesn't mean that something had to happen to help them win. The US has made previous unbelievable upsets in competitions before, especially on home territory. In the 1980 Olympics, the US men's hockey team was even more unlikely to win Gold there, then at the badmintion championships, and they still managed to pull it off. That's just one that comes to mind... Second, you have a player in the same event, who would have met Tony and Howard in the finals if they had come out past the quarter finals and semis, saying that there was no conspiracy. I think if the IBF or US Badminton or whomever was told that the US must win, don't you think Jonas would know? Thirdly, I think to say that other players were told to let the other team win, that takes away from their integrity. I personally think it's insulting to Candra and Sigit to suggest that they let the other team win, when players of that caliber have too much integrity to throw a match. I just don't think the badminton world cares too much about badminton in the US. It's the second most played sport in the world, second only to football (soccer), just because it's not big in North America, doesn't mean it's not popular overall. I don't think that all the countries, and players who play to win, who have their heart and their career and their life involved in badminton would ever be willing to go to a World Championship, and then not play their best with a goal of winning. I just don't believe it. I met up with Tony and Howard at OCBC the day after they won, and talking with Tony, when Candra came up to him and hugged him after the game, he said that Candra said: "Tony you are the best there is." He won gold at the Olympics with one partner, WC with another, now why is it so impossible for a star player like him to take Howard to another level of playing, and win another WC? Not impossible at all. The English players came in to hit the bird, and were congratulating them, telling them how unbelievable their play was. I looked back at some matches the pair has played in the last little while. They managed to get past a higher ranked pair of Laybourn/Steffensen from Denmark, who are not a bad pair. They were seeded higher at the WC, and are only one close ranking behind Limpele and Hian from Indonesia as well. They reached the QF of the German Open 2005, where they lost two Cai/Fu in a three game match. They lost that opening game 0/15, but came back to win the second game 15/13, and lost the third one 11/15. That sounds fairly competitive to me. They made the QF of the Thai Open, where they were eliminated by Choong/Chew from Malaysia. They lost in two games 13/15, 11/15. Those aren't blow-outs. Big time doubles teams can and do sometimes really dominate and blow out a match. They also met Erikens/Lundgaard-Hansen in the QF at the Japan Open. This Danish pair just beat their countrymen Layourn/Steffensen 15/4, 15/4. An example of how a high ranked team can blow-out a lower-ranked team. Now how did the US pair fair against them? 11/15, 15/11, 9/15. A very competitive score, and nothing to be ashamed of, considering a higher ranking pair than you got whipped just at this world championship. So it is possible for Tony to take Howard to another level. It is possible for this pair to compete on the world ciricut. For pete's sake, they've only been together a short while. Howard hasn't regularly been competiting against this calibur, when playing with Kevin Han. He was usually out in the first round or second sometimes. Is it reasonable for Tony to have taught Howard many new things, and many new skills, or better abilities that he didn't have before? Certainly! And is it possible for another team to have a bad day, or a bad game, or a bad match, while another team rises to the occasion that day? Yes it is. If you watch the three games, Tony hit far more into the net then Howard in game 2. Even my girlfriend commented on that. But Tony is a master of the court, and can dig out from almost any error he, or Howard made. Did you see some of the shots as well that Candra and Sigit got back? Some were half court smahes or net kills, and they still managed to return them? If you wanted to let the other team win, why not let those go to the floor as the kills they should be? Why pull out some amazing recovery/dig from the floor and keep the rally going? If you want the other team to win, let the winner shots be winners. As far as smashing to Tony, my impression from watching the match is that the shots Tony got back were simply amazing. They seemed like they should have been winners many, many times, and I think Candra was amazed himself at some that Tony got back. That's the impression I got from talking to Tony briefly at OCBC. And don't forget Tony was often the straight opponent, and doubles crosscourt smashes are frowned upon many times. Either way, I think that it is a stretch to say he was smashing to Tony because the world wanted the US to win, and they let the US win. I think the US audience wanted the US to win, and enough people who have a strong enough feeling and desire can often overcome incredible odds to do something that seems miraculous. When I sat down at the QF watching them win the first game agains Jens and Lundgaard Hansen, I said to my girlfriend, you watch. With the crowd behind him Howard is playing like he is inspired. I said if nation could come up with an unbelievable upset victory while in their homeland it's the US. They've done it before, and they'll do it again. I said that in the QF. Howard did not play half this good when I saw him last summer in Athens. Back then the Danes picked him apart. He was getting back far more smashes this time then back then. His smash has increased, and someone told me that Tony spent a long time helping him to improve his smash, saying that when he first saw it he thought it was terrible. (My words not his). So Howard improves his game, Tony is simply a master of the doubles court, no matter who he plays with. They start competing amongst the worlds best, and Howard starts getting some experience at that level thanks to Tony, and then they start to come on the scene a little. Now they start playing good games against top teams, taking them to three games, fighting to get 11+ points against teams that have higher rankings then them. They were simply inspired. As Jonas said, no such conspiracy existed. No coverup, no consipiracy. Just as Candra acknowledged, Tony is the best. Howard's game is coming along. The best playing team won. Congrats to the U.S.
Lets take a look at this "content to lift" by the Indos. Here is my take. If you are the INDOS, when you play against TONY in the front and Howard in the back which they managed to do most of the time, based on % and skill level, who are you more likely to play the shots? actually, which type of the shots would you be hitting more? A. Play Tony at the front either drive or drop. Lets keep in mind Tony owns the front court against virtually anyone and is capable of cutting off 75%+ of the shots that he can reach. Odds of winning against Tony in the front for the INDOS ? Lets say 50 / 50 at best but more like 30 / 70 with 70 being a losing side. B. Lift to Howard, ( who does not smash with high % kills and often makes unforced errors smashing ). INDOS do have great defense and awesome counter attacks which they did numerous times. Odds of winning against a player who never won a major title like Howard? Lets say 70/30 with 70 being the winning side. I think we can pretty much all agree the winning % is higher to simply "defend" Howard. Obviously that would be the correct strategy. But does everything happen according to odds and % in sports? NO. Now, the next issue, why INDOS dont attack but "Defend" so much. Well, it's pretty obvious: Howard and Tony almost never lifted the shuttle. The few times they lifted the INDOS pretty much destroyed the USA team regardless whether Tony or Howard was defending. Also I believe with Halim on the US side, it would be pretty easy to assume he told them to never lift or lose the match. I think its also easy to assume that Howard would probably lift to Tony's side so Tony takes more of the defense.
I wanted to also note that Tony and Howard played Sigit and Candra at the AE 2005. A tough draw got them meeting in the round of 32. The score? 13/15, 12/15. That's the score of a hard fought, close game. Not the score of an under performing team who was not at the level of the other. A few points difference, a few rallies different, and who knows where Tony and Howard would have gone? Remember Jens and Martin beat their teammates 15/4, 15/4 in the round of 16 at this championship? Tony and Howard gave their all and played well against Sigit and Candra before, and they did so again this time, against all the teams. And with the home crowd before them, Howard rose his game to another level. Good for them both, I say!
Well said. If my partner and I beat the Candra/Sigit, that requires a conspiracy even if they are playing left handed with tennis raquets. If Tony and Howard beat a team that they had played well against before, with tremendous home crowd support, well that's just good, clean badminton fun.
Very valid point about the previous match scores were so close. Tony / Howard lost in 2 games away. This time they won in 3 at home.
Steve, this is the issue that most, including myself, have wondered also. Don't you think Candra/Sigit are capable of creating a lift from Howard/Tony themselves, like what they'd shown in the 2nd set and partly going into the 3rd?? I believe and i'm sure many here know that Tony, Candra and Sigit all have equal skill. I mean they have played against each other before. Candra/Sigit have played Tony/Howard before in the AE earlier this year, so they know what to do. It's not as if they have to "defend" and lift the shuttle all the time. I'm sure many of us here agree that the Candra/Sigit are capable of creating a counter and create their own offensive. Even if Halim told Tony/Howard so, seemed like they are "baiting" Howard and Tony to do the smashes instead. Add to that, Candra made some "questionable" errors as well..Your comment even mentioned it "The few times they lifted the INDOS pretty much destroyed the USA team regardless whether Tony or Howard was defending.", i'm sure the Indos pair can do that more often, if they *really* want to win.. Again, most of us baddie fans that have follow and watch many tournaments can tell by the overall skills of the 4 players involved. We know who's who and can do what.. Also, want to add, sure player make mistakes/errors, but it's just a bit "puzzling" the Star Sport statistics show at least 2x more unforced errors for U.S. than Indo. Yet the result is the opposite..
Cory, you have some insightful comments here.. However, i want to input what other people have brought up also and wondered about..Again, just want to add some "counter-views" on this Yes, it's quite plausible that other top experienced players could have bad day, game or matches. And i'm sure you have watched many IBF GP tournaments the last 4-5+ yrs(involving the Danes, Indos, Chinese etc.) But this is the Finals. I'm sure you also agree that both pairs would want to win this as bad. But do you feel the Indo pairs were on the "defensive" most of the time??Don't you think they are able to easily do a counter and create an offensive as they would like? Regarding your comment of "If you wanted to let the other team win, why not let those go to the floor as the kills they should be?". Well, i saw in a couple of so instances that the Indos did that. I believe it was when the Indos were serving, and it was so bad that either Tony and Howard easily smashed to Candra's side and he couldn't react to/defend it. I also felt Candra was the one committing more unforced errors throughout. Why??I don't remember other instances, but i'm sure someone who have watched the match can see what other instances it happened. Was crowd a factor??I'm sure it's not as the toip pairs have played longer in more "noise condusive" environment. Was AC draft a factor??I don't know, maybe, but they players never mentioned it. You guys can tell lah, all the 4 players skills and what they are capable of and not capable of.. You have to remember the three Indos playing have been playing against each other for basically all their lives, practice or in real game matches. So, they should be familiar with each other's skills and instincts. Thus if Tony was able to return most of Candra's or Sigit's smashes, then it's not really a surprise. However, that wasn't the case with Howard, as i'm sure most fans that saw the match can attest..I'm sure Bach has improved and has come a long ways since last summer, but even with the amoung of training that Howard got, most of his smashes are easily returned, whilst in cases when he's being smashed at there's almost nothing he can do. Which brings us to this. Sure the U.S. fans would want the U.S. team to win, obviously. On this note, i'm just wondering, what would happen if the U.S. team would not have won the match??Would they still be showing the highlights/game on ESPN2 next month. And as far as i know from reading this thread, why aren't they showing the MS, WS, WD, and XD matches??...Probably the words marketing and sponsorship come to mind??.. Well, again i'm not trying to believe in and hopefully there's no "set-up" in this. *IF* there is, I think only the players themselves know it. I'm not taking anything away from Howard/Tony's victory. It was a great effort from them for showing that badminton is a "real" sport. However, will we be seeing an encore from them. Unfortunately that might not happen, as Tony will probably pair up with Halim and Howard will be partnered up with someone else(Bob M.). Maybe it's not an issue what happens in the next tournament they play in, whether win or lose, but i'm quite sure the rest of the badminton world(at least us here at BC) will keep an eye on them. After this tournament, will the U.S. team(whoever they are) did what Gopichand Pullela achieved a few yrs. ago in AE??Or will it continue to shine like Candra/Sigit after winning the WC in 1997. We shall wait and see..
...a tough road ahead for T&H after wc2005 It looks like Tony and Howard will be under tremendous pressure, even much greater than WC2005, in upcoming tournaments to protest those in doubt they can do it. Lets see how they perform in China Open.
