well, alot have been said on this subject. Only time will tell (yes, a cliche). If it is true, i have to give these conspirators great admiration as well. On top of being great MD players (tony, candra, sigit), they are great writers, directors, producers and actors for this script. Also, they showed passion and love for badminton and for each other, as they would had made career risk and made certain sacrifice for frens and badminton.
Reaction in Indonesia media Someone mentioned that the conspiracy theory is also discussed in Indonesian media. I've been reading a lot of Indonesian newspaper reporting (in Kompas online, etc.) and have not picked up any conspiracy accusations being bandied about. The main thrust of opinions in Indonesian media was that they're sad Indonesian teams lost (Sigit/Candra & Luluk/Alven) to the US team, but they're also proud that the US would never win without Indonesians. As Indonesian coach Herry Iman Perngiadi said:"Everybody knows these are Indonesian boys." He was referring to Tony who played, and Ignatius Rusli and Halim Heryanto who were the US coaches. Other editorials focus on the fact that so many Indonesian players (including those who were Olympic, AE, World champions or medallists) have moved to other countries; e.g. Mia Audina, Tony Gunawan, Halim Heryanto, Rexy, Mainaky, etc. They wonder if this is a source of pride or if it points out that Indonesia has failed to keep these players happy and that's why they're all leaving the country. In short, so far I haven't detected any whisper of conspiracies or anything.
I am taking 10 minutes out of my work time to respond to this thread because I think it is necessary to let the American crowd to be "educated" about watching a professional badminton game like the WC, or any other badminton games. As an audience watching the live game in the stadium, I feel nothing more than disappointment about the lost of the Dan and the two Indo pairs in Quarter, Semi and Final. Howard and Tony played brilliantly, I agree, but the Danish and the Indonesian pairs were totally distracted by the crowd; they couldn't perform their best. Personally, I don't like Howard. He acted "as if" he is not a professional player--purposely firing up and invoking a louder crowd, so that people can cheer for him while he attacks. Tony, on the other hand, is calm and humble, displaying a truly professional figure. He knows the essence of a badminton game--the concentration. Why do you think the Empires (two different Empires) gave Howard warnings during the Quarterfinal and Semifinals while he jumped around and shouted to the crowd after winning a rally? However, I think he is getting there, he was quite different during the final, no more jumping around like he did in the previous two games. I remembered when I was watching Sigit/Chandra vs Jonas/Lars, I was shouting "woooo" and "waaaaa" and "OMG, how did they make that shot?! Unbelievable", I didn't while I was watching the USA team playing. That game alone is worth $200 already IMO, seeing Sigit/Chandra getting the revenge as they lost to Jonas/Lars in the WC 03 was quite emotional. Both teams played at their top forms and THAT, my friend, is badminton. Watching USA team playing is different, I haven't thought about anything else rather than "Hum, they are making the history of USA badminton." I was not into the game, but I was constantly thinking the aftermath: “what if they've won?”. To fire up the crowd, you don't need to jump and wave; you just play, like Sigit making all the trick shots with his badminton magic. I cheer for Tony, I cheer for Sigit, I cheer for Chandra, I cheer for JR and Lars! I am happy about the growing popularity of badminton here in the U.S. But I couldn't help blaming the audiences for ruining the WC05 final. And sadly enough, I was sitting among them (after the second game during the final, I exited the stadium and watched the game on TV instead).
w_h_y there are many type of fans. However, to popularize badminton into american culture, like other mainstream sport (except for golf, where edetic is part of the game), u have to induce crowd excitement like in any other mainstream sports. Yes, howard's gestures were a bit extreme for badminton of what 'we are use to' but this is a showcase to amercia, first time high level all badminton event in US soil. Personally, i wouldnt judge that harshly on howard's action. funny: when the interviewer asked martin (DEN) after their lost, Martin went , laugh a bit witha facial expression, hello, are u deaf, the crowd is loud and crazy.
I guess I am not that much of a minority. It was sad looking at Eriksen's facial expression when he looked at the crowd. *sigh* I was very close to the court. If ppl want more top players to play in US Open there is something that the audiences can do to help.
How about the Indonesian crowds? Hi, I have seen a couple of postings regarding the behavior of the crowd and was surprised that it generated so much negative reaction. After all, I was always under the assumption that badminton needed to be promoted as a more active sport with a more vocal audience instead of one that only claps politely in between rallies. As a long-time watcher of badminton, I believe it will not be an exaggeration to say that the Indonesian crowds are among the rowdiest, if not the rowdiest, in the world. For those in the know, how would you say the behavior of the US crowd compares to that of the Indonesians?
let's move all the crowd noisiness discussion to this poll: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26264
I 100% undstand this "there are many type of fans. However, to popularize badminton into american culture, like other mainstream sport (except for golf, where edetic is part of the game), u have to induce crowd excitement like in any other mainstream sports." However, understanding is not agreeing, if that's what it takes to popularize badminton into American culture, there is a big price to pay. I don't know how many more games are to be ruined if they were played here. So here comes my psychological dilemma: do I want more professional games to be played here so that badminton is getting more popular or do I want to enjoy more FAIR games to be played on video. I think I lean towards the later. I feel sorry if I've judged a bit harshly, but I really really don't want to watch another game like the WC05 QUATER, SEMI and FINAL.
in response to w_h_y's entire post (i shorted the quote to be brief).... it is an interesting viewpoint you have, w_h_y, and i must admit that i am split between whether i agree with you or not. on one hand, it is ideal for players to compete in a neutral environment, a neutral environment can either be: 1) a stadium where all audience are politely quiet 2) a stadium where all audience are indifferent in who they support 3) a stadium where there is an equal mixed of supporters for each competitor environments 1) and 2) are quiet environments. 1) is like watching Japan Open, all audience keep quiet and claps their hand only after rallies 2) is like bringing the tournament to a "neutral" country, if we move the tournament to, just as a random example, South Africa, where there isn't a very dense population from the popular country, we will likely see a more neutral crowd 3) is a noisy environment, noisy yet neutral. this i personally think is the ideal case. i think i experienced that in Sudirman Cup 2003 semi/finals. there was a nice equal blend of Danish, Chinese, Danish and Indonesian supporters. every one of them get their equal chance to cheer for their favorite teams. however, such an environment is not always possible, and may in fact be on the rare side. badminton is an international sport, GP tournaments are held in rotation in all different countries. by that nature, likely you will find a biased crowd in the stadium, be it INA, MAS, CHN, DEN. badminton is not alone on this either, it happens in every sport, not just country-wide, but also matches between cities, clubs, etc. which brings me to the 2nd half of my reply, which is what i have described in the above paragraph. by nature, you will likely get biased support. while it is not an neutral environment, it also brings variety to the different tournaments. players cannot expect a crowd that is neutral. they must learn how to perform their best even when in an adverse setting. JR mentioned that he was very excited playing in Jakarta during the TC when the whole crowd was cheering for INA. and btw, CHN managed to beat INA even when the whole stadium was cheering against them. to summarize, while it is ideal to have a neutral crowd, that is not a realistic expectation due to the international nature of badminton. players must learn to to filter out the crowd and still play their best regardless of whether the crowd is cheering for or against them.
Well said, Kwun. I think it will be the players and audiences' decision to participate in a certain tournaments based on the environment they prefered. I know mine and I will be going to ALL England next year. Anyone going too? Btw, I have to give credit to the Ugly Duckings who are so passionate yet discipline while supporting the danes + some other players. *Salute*
Rudytjip, i was told from my relative back in Indo, that they saw in some Indonesian newspaper(s), it "mentioned" this idea. I don't know which specific newspaper, if it's not in Kompas, maybe in Jawapos, www.jawapos.com. I have to ask again, which specific newsmedia and when it is being published. I then went online to check but couldn't find any specific article, except 1 which mentioned something on the WC. You might check it out, hopefully it's not deleted yet. Or the news could be from the previous days' newspaper. Hope that helps.
i went to athens for the badminton, i've seen 3 hong kong opens, and now the wc05. yes, i saw great badminton being played in all of them, however, the jovial and passionate indonesian fans made athens, and especially the wc05, a lot more fun. i thought it was great to hear all of the ina fans sing their nat'l anthem during the medal ceromonies. hk opens are boring by comparison. i loved shouting for my old and new favorites to the rhythm of the rallies. i did not witness any player asking for quiet. did you, mr. w_h_y? i'm a fan of the chinese, too, but sometimes i get a robotic vibe watching them. i like watching any professional who plays w/ passion and personality. as for howard bach? how could you not love to watch a guy playing like his hair is on fire? whoaaAAAA... YA!!! watching him play reminds me why i play... because i absolutely love it. badminton needs more fans in america so let them scream and shout for their favorites. american fans love to be a part of the action. badminton is not tennis or golf. hell, tennis needs more noise, too. you want quiet? go to the ballet.
Is he or is he not? No, seriously, you can tell the difference between a proper chinese name and an english/danish/indonesian name translated into chinese. Mia Audina is Zhang Haili, Tony Gunawan is Wu Jinmin, Howard bach is Bai Guohao and Candra Wijaya is Chen Jialiang. But Taufik is simply Tao Feike (indonesian name translated into chinese), that was why I thought Taufik cannot be an ethnic chinese. But hey, I could be wrong, maybe he is but his family never gave him a proper chinese name. Man, now that you brought this up, I am going to be very disturbed for the next few days. Taufik's facial features look chinese somewhat, but there is also a possibility that he is not. So is he or is he not? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! :crying:
Steve, this is Chris... Well, I, *personally* am not accusing anything, any player and hopefully there is no conspiracy or any "fixing" involved. But by the way this whole thing has turn into a buzz, and btw, it only focused on the MD event not on other event, it shows that it's something that we can't "ignore". I was one of the few that mentioned this, in another thread,http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26122&page=45&pp=18 because after meeting and talking with other people, they also felt a bit the same way. Maybe because of the "surprise" result. Maybe because of the players involved in the match(3 Indos who used to be close friends/teammates), thus creating some "suspiciousness" to those people. Or maybe just because of the way the Indo MD play in the MD. Or all of these combined..
Darth, i wasn't the one who posted about Indo players' ethnicity, another poster. Eventhough i could tell you what their ethnicity is/are or if they are ethnic Indonesian or have some chinese ethnicity...
well...i remember u said u don't like ppl cheering for howard or tony whenever they smashing.....but..remember ..u were doing the same thing whenever sigit or candra play...if i am not wriong.....woooooo..waaaaa didn't started for howard and tony till someone started with candra and sigit ' game
Well, look like many of you guys out there are looking for evidence for the conspiracy theory. Just look at the match over and over again. i have tapedthe match when it was shown live on Channel 82 through astro. I have been watching it for tenth times. Very obviously, Chandra and Sigit are not themselves, they were very inconsistent and lack the desire to go for killing shot. Furthermore, you can see the body language of Chandra, he was not energetic at all. In the previous tournament in Malaysia and Singapore Open, he dominated the game by using his skills and his vision for the game and kill the shots as fast as possible. Also, in their match against Jonas and Las, they were amazing but lost concentration in the 2nd set and gained back their momentum in 3rd set. If anyone one to say that Chandra and Sigit making many unforced errors and play below par due to the crowd in Anaheim, then you guys are really lack of badminton knowledge (sorry, no offense). Chandra and Sigit have been playing in so many Thomas Cup, Malaysia, China and Indonesia Open. Well, China crowds are totally much better than those in Anaheim with their "Jia You" and Malaysia crowds with their "Malaysia Boleh" . Well, one more thing i realise about people who posted in this thread, u guys are not from nation where top level of badminton level is played. Hence, i believe you guys out there lack the exposure to important matches and also seldom see top players in action. Thus, please do not come out with your own justification for this theory with the limited knowledge of exposure to the real atmosphere of a badminton tournament and the capabilities of Chandra and Sigit. But, i still dont like chandra n sigit bcoz they beat chan n koo.... . Malaysia Boleh!!!
Hey Chris, I know its you I am really not saying that you are supporting one way or another and I pretty much said anything is possible. In your post it seems like you are proposing there may only be fixing only in the finals since 3 are Indos and the Indos may have something to gain by "losing". Which I feel its much easier to fix but still not probable. Its not as hard to fix only one match compared to fixing an entire tournament for one team ( USA ). But, however possible, even a conspiracy needs to have more solid facts and less speculations and observations. Best example is how Lin Dan played in the finals. Taufik's win over Lin Dan was incredibly easy where I bet he can complete a full workout with all the energy he has left after the finals. A new theory can easily be made by anyone. Once again, an observation of a team not playing their top level badminton means almost nothing. But under the conditions of no proof and pure speculations and accusation, there are player's name being mentioned while their reputation may possibly be tainted. I feel there is something definitely wrong here. Back to your post, you seem to suggest that there is something about MD since its only event being discussed as possible fix. However, is it possible that for other events the winners are asians and it's not "surprising" for them to win or "pull" an upset. Did anyone doubt that 19yr old taiwan girl for reaching as far as the semi's for having playing so little world class tournaments? After all, she upset almost every one she beat in 05 WC including #5 in the world Wang Chen in similar fashion as the USA team. I have not read a single post saying that's fixed. When she almost upset #1 seed everyone was cheering for her as well. If she was from USA then I can just imagine someone claiming its a fix by IBF. The onyl reason that didnt happen is that she is from Taiwan.
Few things, read my posts when you have time and I already addressed most of your observations. First, Indos are not the only team that is "not themselves" The teams that's not themselves probably includes the entire Chinese team. The way Lin Dan played is hardly "himself". The list goes on and on. Second, I know you been to all these tournaments, but have you been to a tournament that has a serious wind problem that can't be fixed because of USA laws and regulations to keep the stadium at certain temperature, humidity? As I mentioned in my previous post, there are world class players that clear 4 feet out and some only hit to one side of the court. Do you see that in your TOP level tournaments ? Anyways, with DVD's and VCD's readily available, its not hard to get an idea how TOP tournaments are played. So you can pretty much give that thought a rest. Finally, your main point is that they were very energetic in previous tournaments but not in the finals 05 wc. Let me ask you this, are you certain they arent being affected by being in USA? the environment is different, food may be different, time zone is totally different. Can you be sure they werent tired from previous rounds? You said it yourself that "Also, in their match against Jonas and Las, they were amazing but lost concentration in the 2nd set and gained back their momentum in 3rd set. " Can you be sure that they didnt lose their concentration again while playing Tony and Howard in the finals? I mean everyone make INDOS and other top players to be "god-like" and incapable of being "slow" an "lack the will to attack" and "attack the wrong player" but yet we all have seen players have bad games that way in the past tournaments so it's not possible it happened in the 05 WC in the game played in USA?
