MD final conspiracy theories...

Discussion in 'World Championships 2005' started by the_way, Aug 23, 2005.

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  1. Jumpalot

    Jumpalot Regular Member

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    Chris,

    As for the why INDOS couldnt get US team to lift, one word.... TONY. If they could get US team to lift, the score would not even be that close in AE (more like 15 -4, 15-4 not 15-13, 15-12). Tony and Halim once have beaten Kim dong moon and Ha Tae Kwon in another WC final 15-0 in the first game. The entire game was Tony and Halim smashing and literally the koreans smashed less than 5 times in that game. Once again, Tony was the front person and he completely dominated the game and not to take away from Halim but he pretty much has the fun job of just jump smash everything.

    2 x more "unforced errors" - is it because US team only hit shots that are flat tryiing not to lift? As I recall, most of the unforced errors went into the net and Tony an Howard missed several easy kills at the net. In fact, it looks like Tony and Howard were trying to "fix" the game going the other way as you and I could put those shots away at the net easily. Also, unforced errors only accont for "unforced" It doesnt mean INDOS made less "forced" errors. from my memory INDOS probably made more forced errors and this whole picture is starting to contradict the "fixed conspiracy".


    As for "baiting" for Howard to smash, read my earlier post again, if you look at %, it makes sense to keep the shuttle away from TONY even if it means you have to take a smash from Howard. It's not a difficult concept. :)
     
    #181 Jumpalot, Aug 25, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2005
  2. Jumpalot

    Jumpalot Regular Member

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    LOL Chris, I believe it was you that commented in other posts that Taufik said one can almost fly a kite in that building. The fact the players dont mention it doesnt mean they didnt adjust their games.
     
  3. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Steve,
    i see your example of using Halim partnering with Tony against Ha/Kim, which is fine with me. As a matter of fact Tony/Halim beat Candra/Sigit before. And I understand it's basically Tony out there controlling everything for either scenario. But we're talking Tony *and* Howard here. Not Tony *and* Halim. Again, sorry if i'm putting Howard on a spot. But I'm sure you are not putting Halim in the same "breath" as Howard, are you??Even there are several articles which mentioned about the chances of success if Howard partnered with someone else other than Tony..The thing is, lots of people watching the match, were in awestruck of the performance by Candra/Sigit against Tony, since basically all three of them have the same level skills. Like i said several times before, seemed like it's 2 vs. 1 out there. And the 1 person won...C'mon Steve, you can see the level of skill out there between the 4 players...

    Regarding the "unforced" and "forced" errors, hmm, that's what made it not logical. A team making 2x unforced errors than the other, *logically* should be on the losing end right?? Esp. when it seemed like it's just 2 vs. 1. I would think the percentage of both teams making the same "forced" errors is about the same, eventhough Star Sports didn't put any stats up.

    And regarding "baiting", I was meaning to say they "baited" to either one. Meaning they would give the offense more to either Howard or Tony for either one to smash. I wasn't referring to specifically "baiting" to Howard himself.

    Anyways, put it this way, since we seemed to go around and around, :p most people that I've heard from, after watching the match, said it just seemed weird watching it. Just doesn't look normal. Again, going back to the "2 vs. 1" concept.

     
    #183 ctjcad, Aug 25, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2005
  4. Jumpalot

    Jumpalot Regular Member

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    Hey Chris, I agree lets not go in circles, but how about we start after this post? :)

    1. We dont need to compare Howard to Halim ( I know they are not equal). why? Because Tony and Howard have already shown they can come extremely close to beating the INDOS at AE. this year (not long time ago.) The fact it took them 3 games to win it makes perfect sense if USA won this time and they did. Now, for next time, who knows.

    2. Regarding errors... 2x unforced errors alone hardly can predict the result of the game of badminton. Keep in mind that only serving side can earn points so if you are serving, the stats of any errors you make are pretty much meaningless since you dont lose any points if you make "unforced errors" On the other hand, if your opponent is serving, every "unforced error" is a point for them. So it all depends on when the "unforced error" is made and just looking at that one stat actually is useless.

    3. Baiting both players,,yeah I left out Tony and too late to edit. First of all, we both agree Tony controlled the game at will whenever he is in the front when played Candra / Sigit this time and in previous matches. However, If you keep Tony in the back smashing and Howard in the front it is still more preferable than playing net and drives against TONY in the front court. Once again, its all about winning % and baiting TONY & Howard to smash is ultimately more effective than to have to risk lower than less than 30-40% chance of winning playing TONY at the net. I dont think thats even debatable and I believe the INDOS know this. And thats why there is some "baiting" against this unique team. * Anyway, Chris you should know very well how 2 girls from SGVBC always beats the guys because the front person completely controlled all the matches. The way Grace played, just multiply it by 10 and that gives you an idea what Tony does. *

    Finally, For those that want to argue that Tony has an awesome smash as well, I agree.... but sometimes with Howard in front its just less effective since its no secret that Howard is the designated smasher.
     
    #184 Jumpalot, Aug 25, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2005
  5. MikeJ

    MikeJ Regular Member

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    Hello coryprice. :D

    Thank you for a wonderful post. It's too bad not everyone understands that such lose talk of conspiracy is personally insulting to badminton players like Candra/Sigit and the rest of the competitors.

    God bless! :D
     
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    OFF TOPIC:
    Steve,
    rRegarding the 2 gals(J&G) at SGVBC who beat the reg. guys *most* of the time, i believe they are ex-national players, aren't they??..IMO, it doesn't matter who plays front or back between the 2 gals, both are equally good. So of course, they *should be* able to beat *most* of the reg. guys there *most* of the time...Technique wise>power..
    Tony=Candra=Sigit.....2 vs. 1, but the 1 person prevail??..Normal??..you see the point??.. :p

     
    #186 ctjcad, Aug 25, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2005
  7. Jumpalot

    Jumpalot Regular Member

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    Makes perfect sense to me..... Even if it really is 2 vs 1 ( which is not true since we already agree Tony controlled the game against the Candra and Sigit so its hardly 2 vs 1 ).

    But for your point, even if its 2 vs 1 or 10 vs 1. The 1 came very close to winning last time (a match thats free of conspiracy or controversy) and this time the 1 won in 3 games with home court advantage, and in a harsh environment and with even more time to practice since the AE. WithTony & Halim working on Howard together, ummmm.. why not ? if anything, this match resulti is more than normal when you compare it to the other finals results such as Lin Dan vs Taufic ... or the 15 -0 score won by Tony / Halim vs KDM / HTK in 01 WC.
     
  8. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    This "2 v 1" theme is getting out of hand. At least give Howard a 0.75. If Tony is so good he can play singles to beat Chandra/Sigit, then he should play singles and beat Taufik easily. USA 2 golds.
     
  9. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    If Candra/Sigit can learn from their previous encounter in the AE, why can't Tony/Howard learn from it as well? Anyway, you tend to learn more from losing, don't you? If the AE result was a close match, why can't the WC result be reversed?

    I think one of the problems is that Howard Bach's skills are not being acknowledged here. He may not have the exquisite skill shots, but being fast and powerful is good enough. Look at Lin Dan.
     
  10. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    hcyong,
    ok,ok let's give Howard .75 and the crowds/support another .25... :p
    but even that, Tony was the *main* cog and he *literally* "single-handedly" won the match(and maybe even all the games he and Howard played in)..
    It's hard to tell, as it's such a "surprise" because reflecting back, the match itself was "weird"..perhaps IF they can still play together after this WC in other tourneys outside the homeland and see how they fare together??..or maybe next year, a rematch with Candra & Sigit??..

    Again, will this be another Gopichand Pullela success story or one similar to Candra&Sigit success story??...we don't know..

     
  11. Vtec101

    Vtec101 Regular Member

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    Maybe you should open up your mind and see the other sides points instead of being a mule about the conpiracy theory. How do you explain USA beating the #1 seeds? Was that fixed too? Come on now. All you are doing is bad mouthing and tarnishing all the players' reputation, from the Indos to the Danes, to the Malays, and also the USA. I doubt Chandra or Sigit, as good as they are, is as skillful at the net as Tony. When Tony played with Chandra, who played the net and who did the smashing? Same with Halim. As to the 2 vs 1 theory, it takes 2 to win, so stop putting Howard down.
     
  12. Vtec101

    Vtec101 Regular Member

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    I totally agree Hcyong, but the conspiracy supporters just can't accept that an underdog won no matter what you tell them it seems.
     
  13. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Well "2 vs. 1" *literally*...you know what i mean Steve.. :p
    Hmm, I guess we shall wait and see what comes after this for the "U.S." team..I want to see how well they do after this WC..But will Howard and Tony stay and play more together to show what they are capable of, playing GP tourneys outside their homeland??..

    But again, like i mentioned before, if they decide that they will not pair up anymore after this, they've already succeded in putting a dent in badminton history and in U.S. badminton scene to market it here..

    Which is basically the main purpose of them winning the WC..Which(ding,ding) goes back to the "theory" again:what if they had lost(which is a 50-50 possibility)??Will they have failed in fulfilling the IBF and USAB goal of mainstreaming and marketing the sport here in U.S.??Or they will go on with their plan even if they had lost??.. :rolleyes:

     
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Vtec101, please see/read my post #193...What am i not being open-minded with??...Maybe i may sound like a "mule" or what have you, but I'm just sharing what is/are on other people's mind/point of view, specifically on the MD Finals match, who may not want to voice their opinion(s) here..(shoulder shrugs) :rolleyes:

     
  15. Vtec101

    Vtec101 Regular Member

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    Other's mind and yours too maybe? Well, if they want to talk about the MD final, then they have to talk about this from the round 3 onward as they upsetted all the teams from that point. :rolleyes:
     
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Actually you know what Vtec101, to tell you right here and now, i already heard slight "whispers" from some people about a chance of a possible match up between Tony/Howard and Candra/Sigit starting from when they won against JE/MLH...But i didn't really bug into it much. But when they won the SF against the Indos, then i started to hear more and more...Reaching it's climax during the MD Finals and finish..
    And here we are now, talking about it.. :p :p

     
  17. Vtec101

    Vtec101 Regular Member

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    I would think that would be normal, people talking about possible match ups. Not many people thought Tony/Howard would get past JE/MLH, many thought the win against Chew/Choong was pure luck. But as soon as they beat the #1 seeds, of course people are going to start talking about Tony/Howard going to the finals. I've heard alot of people talk about it, but that doesn't mean there's a "fix" to get them into the finals is there?
     
  18. ggsam

    ggsam Regular Member

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    I donn't think badminton games can be fixed, especially MD, because the game speed is too fast, any faked action will be very prominant. USA team has advantages as they are palying in own court. Candra and sigit are playing awesome games too, but they are unlucky.

    I don't feel suprise to the disco hair typed taiwanease gril making any upset. Just look at her strokes, is very similiar to Ardy wiranata and very fast movement on court.
     
  19. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    there was nothing mentioned about any "fix" for Tony/Howard to go to Finals, at least i didn't hear it in the earlier rounds. I def. thought they probably would not win against JE/MLH. If anyone remember, i posted somewhere before the WC started that i felt Tony/Howard is the U.S. best chance and will at least reach the QF round??..But when they won the SF and Candra/Sigit won their SF match, words got more and more...And coincidentally all three current and ex-Indonesian teammates were playing in the Finals.. :rolleyes:

    But yes, people have their own ideas and wonderment..

     
  20. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    well, it's true. HCA(home court advantage) is part of sport..But it's by no means a guarantee that the home team or players *will win* playing at their home court..
    It's just that certain circumstances&factors in this particular WC, specifically in the MD Finals match, which makes this whole topic intriguing..

     
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