List of due delays before serving

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by VeritasC&E, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. VeritasC&E

    VeritasC&E Regular Member

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    One rule if badminton states: "Neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of the server’s racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2) shall be considered an undue delay"

    It would be interesting for this thread to host a legal discussion about this rule. For instance:

    A) I think it would be interesting if we try to make a comprehensive list of all things that are or may be considered as "due delay", supported when possible by evidence of what is factually happening on tournament videos with famous players.

    I hereby start the list with member contributions from other topics:

    Due Delay Between Rallies

    - Change of shuttle (Source: Stradrider)
    - Wiping the floor of sweat (Source: Stradrider)
    - Very quick toweling if you are visibly sweating. (Source: Stradrider)
    - Someone might have been injured and had to see if he can keep paying (Source: Speculatius)
    - Lights stopped working (Source: Speculatius)
    - Ventilation was switched back on and it's blowing from one end of the court (Source: Speculatius)

    Undue Delay Between Rallies

    - Recovering strength (Source: Kwun & Rulebook)
    - Recovering breath / wind. (Source: Kwun & Rulebook)
    - Receiving advice. (Source: Kwun & Rulebook)
    - Anything involving leaving the court outside of the 11 pt intervals without the umpire's permission. (Source: Kwun & Rulebook)
    - Use of grip powder outside the 11 pt pause. "Umpire will rarely allow powdering the grip as it delays the game quite a bit." (Source: phihag & Stradrider)


    B) Is the second part ("On completion of...") meant to define the term "undue delay" used in the first part of the rule or is it meant to supplement the first part by providing one example of what should specifically be considered undue delay?

    C) The rule forbids undue delay "once the server and the receiver are ready for the service". Do rules define what constitutes being "ready for the service"? If not, or if not sufficiently clearly so, does any one have an evidenced comprehensive interpretation of what is officially considered being "ready for the service"?

    D) The rule forbids undue delay "once the server and the receiver are ready for the service". What do rules then forbid BEFORE the server and the receiver are ready for the service? If nothing, what is the maximal acceptable delay BEFORE that (with evidence from tournament videos with famous players)?

    Answered by Kwun (below):

    16.4 Delay in play
    16.4.1 Under no circumstances shall play be delayed to enable a player to recover strength or wind or to receive advice.
    16.4.2 The umpire shall be the sole judge of any delay in play.
    16.5 Advice and leaving the court
    16.5.1 Only when the shuttle is not in play (Law 15), shall a player be permitted to receive advice during a match.
    16.5.2 No player shall leave the court during a match without the umpire’s permission, except during the intervals as described in Law 16.2.
    16.6 A player shall not:
    16.6.1 deliberately cause delay in, or suspension of, play;
     
    #1 VeritasC&E, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  2. VeritasC&E

    VeritasC&E Regular Member

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    I updated the post with the first contributions to the list from other topics.
     
  3. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    the rule you quote is for after the players are ready to serve/receive serve. I don't think that's your intention.

    the rules that are relevant to what you are looking for are these:

     
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  4. VeritasC&E

    VeritasC&E Regular Member

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    Thanks, I think you just answered question D : )
    I updated the post with your answers!

    I have a few questions regarding those rules hereafter:

    16.5.1 Only when the shuttle is not in play (Law 15), shall a player be permitted to receive advice during a match.

    How is "not in play" defined? Is that defined by law 15?

    16.5.2 No player shall leave the court during a match without the umpire’s permission, except during the intervals as described in Law 16.2.

    What is meant by "leaving the court"? Is it forbidden for instance to step out of the lines without the umpire's permission? I am forced to assume retrieving the shuttle allows you to cross those lines without, according to those rules, an express permission of the umpire?

    16.6 A player shall not:
    16.6.1 deliberately cause delay in, or suspension of, play;

    Is this rule meant to be read as:

    a) "A player shall not deliberately do anything that incidentally causes a delay other than what is specifically allowed"

    OR

    b) "A player shall not deliberately do anything with the purpose / end in mind of causing a delay"

    ?
     
    #4 VeritasC&E, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  5. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Yup, law 15 defines in play as from serve until end of rally, of course in more formal terms.

    The court here is roughly the playing mat, or about 50cm around the outer lines.

    No. The rules are not a program for a computer, but interpreted by humans, and only applied to prevent behavior detrimental to the game. This means that of course you can always retrieve the shuttle, exchange your racket during the rally, or step a bit outside of the court mat if your footwork requires it.

    A mixture of both: Outright delay (as in B) is of course forbidden, but having a discussion with the coaches after every rally (which would be an example of A) is also prohibited.

    As I wrote before, this depends on a lot of factors. In your typical low-level children's match, anything that is not collecting the shuttle could be considered delay, and one would expect a rather speedy rhythm on the order of 5-15s in between rallies. In an Olympic Finals at 20:20 in the third set after a long rally, both sides will likely have a quick word with the coaches, be allowed by the umpire to towel down, and walk around on court, and request a shuttle change, so 40 seconds would be fine there.
     
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  6. VeritasC&E

    VeritasC&E Regular Member

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    What is meant by "your typical low-level children's match"?

    I still have a hard time understanding for instance whether or not I can powder my hands outside of the 11 points pause (it certainly takes <15 seconds), and how many times outside the pauses would be the limit. Would olympics level players be allowed to if it takes <10s? How many times per set outside the pauses? And if so, why not any badminton player?

    Also, can putting the feathers back into place on the shuttle after each rally be added to the due delay list, and if so with what average time to do so? 10 seconds?
     
  7. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Kids tend to play much quicker. Oftentimes, as an umpire I'm barely done with the score announcement when the shuttle is already flying again.

    We have discussed this before, most recently in this thread.

    We have discussed this before in this thread.


    You seem to seek hard and fixed rules, like a due delay list. Badminton rules are just not written that way.

    In fact, virtually all sports give considerable power to the umpire/referee, and allow them to decide many situations on their own. This works out pretty great, since the umpire can make exceptions.

    Imagine there was a rule that powdering would be allowed up to two times per game, up to 10s. Then if you drop the powder bottle and take 12s powdering, the umpire would have to penalize you. That would be a bad rule. And some players would start to "powder" rackets that don't need powdering, and save up their two "powdering chances" for the end of a game to irritate the opponent.

    The umpire follows a general rule of thumb: They try to balance both players' wishes, and the wishes of the audience and other tournament organizers. For example, if both players need to powder their rackets (or do whatever else), then the umpire will almost certainly allow it. But both players can't powder their rackets after every rally, because then matches would take much longer, and other players will have to play very late, and spectators will get bored.

    Some sports/leagues have much more detailed rule books. The NFL comes to mind. But these detailed rules make it hard for ordinary players and spectators to follow the game, and open up all kinds of new mini-games and delaying tactics. They need to be patched constantly, and require many people and technical tools to enforce.
    Rules can't be written that way if they apply both to professional and for-fun competition.

    Badminton rules boil down to Hit the shuttle over the net, and be a good sportsman. While they haven't been 100% successful in curbing delay and undesired behavior, the underlying mindset allows two 8-year-olds with kid rackets to play the same sport that Kento Momota and Viktor Axelsen do, and the rules tend to be flexible when required but strict enough to prevent misconduct.
     
    #7 phihag, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  8. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    Look here Fellow, when you posted the list of delays and quoted verbatim the lawbook sections, I am tempted to be generous that you understand the terms and phrasing. And then you start about putting feathers back into place.

    If you do not understand the terms and phrasing, please mention that. Many on this forum will be helpful. If the location you list is correct, I know of people who could help.

    Stop feeding an hungry troll people, I am.
     
  9. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    sounds like you should ask the umpire. and keep in mind if you are doing it during the match, whether that in itself is also a delay. :D:D:D
     
  10. psyclops

    psyclops Regular Member

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    Two very different scenarios in a single paragraph is difficult to parse properly. Notwithstanding, the former instance of low-level children's match is uncalled for. If you meant that each match has its own tempo, its own rhythm, then alright, understood.

    In terms of umpiring, or officiating in general, the ones who are most respected are the ones who apply the laws consistently, no matter the scoreline is 0:0 in game one or everything that follows later. Will 40 seconds be fine in the latter situation?

    Not without someone paying the price.
     

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