Let's conclude it, Lin Dan is the best MS baddy player in human history.

[viver]

Yes, I've watched that match on Youtube, but I am not convinced. Simply open up any one of today's game, doesn't has to be LD, and you'll notice immediately the difference between the game pace.

If you are a competitive badminton player, you should know that a fast pacing game would make your regular play and anticipation that much harder.

Now let's look at Peter Gade and Taufik, both have excellent skill and technique, but they are simply outmatch by LCW and LD. That's said, good technique is only one aspect of the game, physical fitness also take a huge part of it. Not to mention LD has excellent technique also, he is extremely deceptive and accurate with his over head shoot, good touches at the net and excellent retrieving ability.

If you've watch this year AE, the commentator (Gail??) also believed that LD has topped all the greats from the past since the Olympic.

Or put it this way...

LD = 4 times AE under his belt (or 5 times, some would agree )
ZJH = 2 times

4 > 2

Fair enough. The conclusions we have are based on our experience. If I watch the ZJH vs Morten Frost match together with Tang Xinfu, surely our conclusions would be very different.

I was a competitive player, represented my club and was for some time was selected to represent the territory where I lived. Trained under professional coaches - Chinese national level for years in a sponsored club. I did some local tournaments in singles and doubles. I played some other XD matches partnering with a lady who used to be a Chinese team player.

A fast paced game is not everything. Can go back and watch for example Dong Jiong vs Hoyer Larssen.

Actually I don't have any problem with your conclusions. All of us have different criteria when judging the best players. For me the all time best is Tang Xinfu, and of course this is for me only. Yours might be somebody else.

 

[cooler]

Actually I don't have any problem with your conclusions. All of us have different criteria when judging the best players. For me the all time best is Tang Xinfu, and of course this is for me only. Yours might be somebody else.

fair enough, i buy that. Without tang fu, i doubt LD is LD of today.
Since LD is a prodigy of tang fu, if speed and power is secondary to technique and stroke, then LD shouldn't be LD like LD of today. A master do not have to be stuck with one mind set, a true master is constantly learning and changing.

 

[viver]

wong8egg, i share yourview. I will elaborate more below



hi viver, long time no chat.

I appreciate your admiration of old master's wisdom and teaching. However, if u do comparison of today's players, u have to also acknowledge the merit of speed and power of today's game. If technique and stroke are so highly valued over speed and power, why the current top 2 players LD and LCW can consistently beat TH, PG (also referenced by wong8egg) where the latter players supposed to have better stroke and techniques ?? Didn't we had a debate before where u went as far to say that top world pro WS can beat our canadian national MS because the formers have better technique and footwork and stroke skill, and these skills can overcome canadian MS's power, speed and inferior techniques and strokes? My disagreement with this comparison is unchange. I value speed and power because I have more room to improve on these variables than stroke and technique. With stroke and technique, the value of further and further improvement, if any, become less and less valuable. Maybe more valuable to the viewing audience with Ooo and Awww but to a player, a point is won or lost, there is no bonus point for artistic value or point deduction for a poor looking stroke. Today desirable quality is what gets u the points in most effective and lowest risk path, that is speed and power. TH fans can oogling all they want about TH backhand smash or his netting skills, bottom line is, did these skills helped him getting more titles? Bruce Lee redefined martial art by extracting only the effective skills from each type of fighting and discarded the ineffective. He use to laugh at those old chinese flowery movement and flailing of arms and legs. Real fight should be over in less than 30 seconds.

I have read the fang kai xiang interview with Racquet Malaysia. I fully understood where he is coming from. His remarks are in the context those olden days. I found one contradiction from him, IMO. He valued techiques and stroke and tactic very highly but he also admired tang X Fu the most as a complete player but yet, tang fu is known to be a power and speed player, who like to attack. Sure tang fu has techique and deception too but back in those days, all good players have them too.

Let me give my explanation why FKX's say those things. You see, back in 50's and 60's, racket is heavy, shaft is extra extra stiff, and the gut string tension is low by today's standard. The smash power back in those days isn't as threaten as today's player and equipment. Therefore, tactic, stroke, techique, deception are more valued. If FKX back then got a glimpse of how fast and powerful of players of today, he would place speed and power more highly.

To prove my point, Fang Kai Xiang himself said he played for china from age of 20 to 38. Back in those days, Men players often play more than TWO events(MS, MD), some even THREE events (MS, MD, XD). There is no way today player's body could last that long in competitive form. This is enough to convince me to conclude that the intensity of past era's matches aren't as high as today's. I won't doubt that they have long matches but that is related to stamina, not intensity and the force exerted on each more powerful stroke.


From FKX interview, it also may explain why LCW is stuck at 2nd best. FKX said "National champion Misbun Sidek has one of the best technique in the world, better than morten frost but he lacks leg power and finishing". With no disrespect to misbun, to me it seem like misbun is teaching LCW techniques more so than speed and power. Not finishing is also LCW's trademark. I think i see a correlationship here.

Well quite a long post. I will try to be short.

Our discussion on WS, if that was a discussion - I don't think you understood my points. First, there is not a statement where I said the top WS would beat the Canadian men players. I stated 'I would not be surprised if the top WS beat the Canadian men players..'

Secondly, our biggest difference - technique and physical attributes for a professional athlete are EQUALLY important to which you beg to differ. Would you compare the before and after OG Lin Dan and analyse what improvements he made? Faster, stronger?

My preferred all time MS player is Tang Xinfu, a player with excellent tactical awareness, great all around skills and superb fitness. Zhao Jianhua is also on my list of preferred players due to same reasons. As in my previous post to another poster, the conclusions and preferences are personal and possibly based on one experience.

Off topic - I don't know much about martial arts, if Bruce Lee redefined it I am totally ignorant. The little bit I spent time on is karate, Goju-Ryu style.

 

[Badmintan]

Super Dan

I agree that Lin Dan is the best player today, but all time? He still can win another olympic gold medal in London.

2 confounders are present, namely improvement in badminton technology (racquets & strings) and the new 21 point system[disputed in BC ].

Perhaps overall fitness/athleticism is superior today, due to better nutrition, coaching, medical science and training regime.

Zhao JianHua, Yang Yang, Liem Swie King, Rudy Hartono, Svend Pri, Eddy Choong, Wong Peng Soon & other hall of famers may not benefit from the technology and professional support Lin Dan enjoys.

 

[viver]

fair enough, i buy that. Without tang fu, i doubt LD is LD of today.
Since LD is a prodigy of tang fu, if speed and power is secondary to technique and stroke, then LD shouldn't be LD like LD of today. A master do not have to be stuck with one mind set, a true master is constantly learning and changing.

I don't understand what you are trying to say... Did anywhere in my post mentioned that speed and power are secondary to technique??

 

[koo_fan]

I agree that Lin Dan is the best player today, but all time? He still can win another olympic gold medal in London.

Ya lor. Another OG's waiting. Should wait for that to have better judgement.

1.improvement in badminton technology (racquets & strings)
2.the new 21 point system[disputed in BC ].
3.Perhaps overall fitness/athleticism is superior today, due to better nutrition, coaching, medical science and training regime.
4.Zhao JianHua, Yang Yang, Liem Swie King, Rudy Hartono, Svend Pri, Eddy Choong, Wong Peng Soon & other hall of famers may not benefit from the technology and professional support Lin Dan enjoys.

Why don't we judge him to be "Best MS Player" with only consisting the players who enjoyed these privileges ?
Period, my vote is yes.Period.
Would wait for Chong Wei to trash him down.When there's still time left.

 

[ye333]

IMHO the 1985 ZJH can beat today's Gade and TH rather easily. It is obvious from the videos that ZJH in 1985 was much more athletic than PG and TH today (and we all agree that ZJH's technique is comparable to these two, if not better). PG always gets tired after a few points, and look at how slow TH is! There is no way they can match young ZJH.

Now let's look at Peter Gade and Taufik, both have excellent skill and technique, but they are simply outmatch by LCW and LD. That's said, good technique is only one aspect of the game, physical fitness also take a huge part of it. Not to mention LD has excellent technique also, he is extremely deceptive and accurate with his over head shoot, good touches at the net and excellent retrieving ability.

 

[cooler]

Well quite a long post. I will try to be short.

Our discussion on WS, if that was a discussion - I don't think you understood my points. First, there is not a statement where I said the top WS would beat the Canadian men players. I stated 'I would not be surprised if the top WS beat the Canadian men players..'

Secondly, our biggest difference - technique and physical attributes for a professional athlete are EQUALLY important to which you beg to differ. Would you compare the before and after OG Lin Dan and analyse what improvements he made? Faster, stronger?

My preferred all time MS player is Tang Xinfu, a player with excellent tactical awareness, great all around skills and superb fitness. Zhao Jianhua is also on my list of preferred players due to same reasons. As in my previous post to another poster, the conclusions and preferences are personal and possibly based on one experience.

Off topic - I don't know much about martial arts, if Bruce Lee redefined it I am totally ignorant. The little bit I spent time on is karate, Goju-Ryu style.

I don't understand what you are trying to say... Did anywhere in my post mentioned that speed and power are secondary to technique??

hmmm, quite contrary view from my end. Your never ending extolls on stroke and techniques skills of past coaches and players, especially from your olden days and observation/experience, and yet, when i brought up examples and cases showing the merit and advantages of speed and power, you then back track and say speed and power are equally important. It seem you can't or do not want to take a firm position on this speed vs technique debate. While in my case, i have firmly stated my position, over and over again, speed and power are MORE valuable than stroke and technique in ranking of importance. I even constructed a pyramid of skill set in order of importance, in another thread. In your case, you have discussed alot about your past experiences and observation but it seem that, IMO, u can't consolidate and organize your past experiences and formulate what is effective and what is ineffective, or their ranking of importance. You just go around about, and use implicit language to cover up potential uncertainty. It's just my past observation from my many discussion with you. Nothing personal.


If you look at your recent statement of your (above underlined), and the past statement of your from a closed thread, dated May 17, 2005

Given my past experiences, I'd say it is not certain that top Canadian male players could beat the world's top 5 ladies players. I believe the top ladies players have higher skills levels and am not sure if the physical superiority of the male players could compensate in the areas they are lacking in.

Yes, u didn't really said it explicitly but it does sound wishy washy to me. As an analogy, your logic goes like: Given my past experiences, I'd say it is not certain that Lin Dan could beat LCW. I believe LCW has higher skills levels and am not sure if the physical superiority of Lin Dan could compensate in the areas he is lacking (strokes and techniques) in. In another word, if LCW beat LD, you are right, if LD beat LCW, you are right too. You see? I find your logic even harder to understand

 

[viver]

hmmm, quite contrary view from my end. Your never ending extolls on stroke and techniques skills of past coaches and players, especially from your olden days and observation/experience, and yet, when i brought up examples and cases showing the merit and advantages of speed and power, you then back track and say speed and power are equally important. It seem you can't or do not want to take a firm position on this speed vs technique debate. While in my case, i have firmly stated my position, over and over again, speed and power are MORE valuable than stroke and technique in ranking of importance. I even constructed a pyramid of skill set in order of importance, in another thread. In your case, you have discussed alot about your past experiences and observation but it seem that, IMO, u can't consolidate and organize your past experiences and formulate what is effective and what is ineffective, or their ranking of importance. You just go around about, and use implicit language to cover up potential uncertainty. It's just my past observation from my many discussion with you. Nothing personal.


If you look at your recent statement of your (above underlined), and the past statement of your from a closed thread, dated May 17, 2005



Yes, u didn't really said it explicitly but it does sound wishy washy to me. As an analogy, your logic goes like: Given my past experiences, I'd say it is not certain that Lin Dan could beat LCW. I believe LCW has higher skills levels and am not sure if the physical superiority of Lin Dan could compensate in the areas he is lacking (strokes and techniques) in. In another word, if LCW beat LD, you are right, if LD beat LCW, you are right too. You see? I find your logic even harder to understand

Well, then I can't control your assumptions and please don't put your words on my mouth. I am pretty clear about what I have said and learned - the 5 directives if you care to read again the post of whatever date, surely I would have put the word EQUALLY important. If your conviction is that speed and power are the most important attributes of a player, who am I to disagree with you.

As for the WS, I still stand on my point. I don't know enough of top Canadian MS players and will not be surprised if they lose to top WS players. I can't affirm on things that are hypothetical!

Then again, just don't assume my thoughts.

 

[cooler]

Well, then I can't control your assumptions and please don't put your words on my mouth. I am pretty clear about what I have said and learned - the 5 directives if you care to read again the post of whatever date, surely I would have put the word EQUALLY important. If your conviction is that speed and power are the most important attributes of a player, who am I to disagree with you.

As for the WS, I still stand on my point. I don't know enough of top Canadian MS players and will not be surprised if they lose to top WS players. I can't affirm on things that are hypothetical!

Then again, just don't assume my thoughts.

hmmm, funny how u see things.
It is quite impossible for me to assume what's your position when my whole point of my previous post is to say that u say things in implicit term, and your positions taken, if any, are wishy washy.

I did not said speed and power are the most important attributes, I SAID speed and power IS MORE important than strokes and techniques. Please understand this difference if you can. Speed, power, strokes, techiques are just some subset of skills that embody a total player. There are a few more but i won't bring them here as it would confuses the issue at hand.

Yes, it is correct MS from nonpower house country like Canada versus top world WS is a hypothetical discussion, that is why i challenge you to pick a stance or a position on this hypothetical scenario, based on your vast knowledge of training and observation of past masters, so we can sort out which skill sets are more important, speed+ power or stroke+ techniques. Even I, with limited experience and knowledges, can take a position on this subject, and offer to open up to your critic since you are much more knowledgeable and experienced. I didn't get that return favor.

I acknowledged that i have none of your vast knowledge and experience but i ask, how come in racket sports, and in most other sports, there are NO MEN VERSUS WOMEN 1 on 1 competiton, even in lower level tournaments, there are no such competiton. Is it the results are so obvious plus that it is politically incorrect to hold such one lob sided competition????

 

[AlanY]

Or put it this way...

LD = 4 times AE under his belt (or 5 times, some would agree )
ZJH = 2 times

4 > 2

just pick on your last point.

ZJH was up against Morten Frost, Yang Yang, Ardy Wiranta, Heryanto Arbi...
and
the only real challenger for LD was Chen Hong.

For me ZJH is still the best.

 

[Krisna]

Lin Dan might be the best player 2006-2009... Taufik was argueably better than him before that [2004-2005]... but he is surely not the most famous! The most famous is: ...PRAKASH PADUKONE! Because he is the father of Deepika Padukone! Just google her if you don't trust me... She has 1 billion fans!

 

[viver]

...PRAKASH PADUKONE! Because he is the father of Deepika Padukone! Just google her if you don't trust me... She has 1 billion fans!

I wouldn't argue on this one with you!!

 

[OneToughBirdie]

Lin Dan might be the best player 2006-2009... Taufik was argueably better than him before that [2004-2005]... but he is surely not the most famous! The most famous is: ...PRAKASH PADUKONE! Because he is the father of Deepika Padukone! Just google her if you don't trust me... She has 1 billion fans!

Looks like she has 1 billion plus 2 latest recruits - you and me...!!! So are you gonna include her in your wish list looks mightily high maintenance, you need deep pocket though...then, when you keep wishing, you may sleep better

 

[george@chongwei]

ok, let me ask you guys a question here.

example here, what will it be if Lin Dan current condition right now vs the likes of Zhao Jian HUA, morten frost, rudy hartono, Sun Jun, Eddy Choong, Han Jian, Yang Yang,hendrawan and many badminton legends out there who are on from during their career?
who do you think will win the match?

for example only

 

[Wong8Egg]

ok, let me ask you guys a question here.

example here, what will it be if Lin Dan current condition right now vs the likes of Zhao Jian HUA, morten frost, rudy hartono, Sun Jun, Eddy Choong, Han Jian, Yang Yang,hendrawan and many badminton legends out there who are on from during their career?
who do you think will win the match?

for example only

Not just LD, I am confident to say any of the top 10 today would beat them relatively easy. Badminton has evolved in every aspect since 20 years ago, it is no secret and can easily be seen in every match that is played today.

I don't see how ZJH, Yang Yang, Morten Frost can storm into the net from the back of the court like the way LD does. I don't see them can retrieve and recover as quickly as LCW. And they hardly moving as quick as Peter Gade does, even he his at the age of 30+ today.

Player like ZJH has set the standard in their era for the next generation to build upon, and players today are setting a higher standard, and this standard will contiune to rise in the future...

 

[yourbestfriend]

just pick on your last point.

ZJH was up against Morten Frost, Yang Yang, Ardy Wiranta, Heryanto Arbi...
and
the only real challenger for LD was Chen Hong.

For me ZJH is still the best.

completely disagree. your making it sound like LD had it easy.
LD NEVER had it easy. It is never easy being WR#1, in any sport. Everybodies goal is to try and beat you. lee hyun il, gade, taufik, chong wei, BCL, CJ, jonassen are no good? LD thrash them easily everysingle time they played? i don't think so man.

I don't remember EVER in badminton where the WR1 was soo much better than everybody else. Yah, the players you listed are legends right now, and deservingly so, but i think when LD retires and the dust settles, he will be looked at as the most successful and dominant player of any era. As much as i hate to say this, but, i don't think there will be another player like LD for at least another 20 years.
When this current generation of players retire (LD, LCW, Gade, Taufik, LHI, BCL and Jonassen), and we're looking back at them in 10 years, they will be the new legends and greats.

and remember, LD isn't even finished yet. He is 26 this year. In the upcoming world champs he is surely going to be favorite and judging by his health and how well he takes care of himself, he could realistically make a push for olympic gold in 2012.

With all this being said, it's still a little early to make any assumptions about how he will place in history. BUT the fact that we're even discussing this means he'll probably be pretty high

 

[yourbestfriend]

Not just LD, I am confident to say any of the top 10 today would beat them relatively easy. Badminton has evolved in every aspect since 20 years ago, it is no secret and can easily be seen in every match that is played today.

hahaha man, no disrespect to them, but i don't think the oldies would be able to retrieve the back-hand smashes of taufik, nevermind the forehands of LD or LCW.

i can just imagine in 15 years, 350km smashes are "normal" and the world record hovering around 400km

 

[george@chongwei]

hahaha man, no disrespect to them, but i don't think the oldies would be able to retrieve the back-hand smashes of taufik, nevermind the forehands of LD or LCW.

i can just imagine in 15 years, 350km smashes are "normal" and the world record hovering around 400km

i mean what if those oldies right now, their past on form in their badminton career vs lin dan now.

quite complicated huh?

 

[Wong8Egg]

And for everyone's convenience.

ZJH @ 1985 (ZJH's prime time according to viver)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KDmdZvXLk4&feature=related

Today's badminton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWJdwrbtkY
We don't even need LD or LCW to proof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc3unW_7e58&feature=channel_page


Even my Mom knows who is better