I wonder how much a pair of shorter hold down cost shipped to Vancouver BC Canada the long ones i have sometimes a problem when i want to tie off. =( Also my fix clamps moves when i remove the string from the gripper so i use these orange clamps to secure the fixed clamps. is there a way to resolve this? http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21651&stc=1&d=1150765617 BTW thanks Stringtechno for your time replying our questions and inquiries
Hi Distanc3, I like to communicate with users of the SW machines and also give some kind of customer support when needed. To get 2 hooks plus shorter hold down hooks cost € 5,07 each plus € 5,70 for sending them to you. When you do not use the long ones anymore you can also replace them with shorter clamping pieces. The hooks are pressed into the clamping pieces and it is not too difficult to remove them. I put these in an envelop free of charge. About the Clamping system: This is peculiar, the T92 system is such a basic system that it should always lock. Did you put any type of lubricator on the shafts? The shafts and the busses should be completely dry. If the shafts get dirty degrease them. If the shafts are dry and clean, you can grind the shafts with fine emery cloth (corn 180) preferably in a lathe so that you can let the shaft turn while you move the cloth slowly to the end. In case that you mean that you have drawback of the clamp (before it locks), move the clamp in the direction of pulling before you close it. In this way the movement to lock is minimal.
Any remaining slack is usually pulled back if you give the tensioner a second. Also, if you push your clamp and its base towards the tensioner after you clamp, before you release the string, you will get 1 mm to no drawback.
Thanks Fishmilk and Stringtechno, I'll try it the next time i string, for your information i got this machine from Pete who couldnt get it to work without it sliding. I'll give it a shot and thanks for the advice
Obviously we are a very small representation. What I think though is that the price is hard to justify for something that's not deemed necessary. Perhaps if more stringers were able to get their hand on it, it would be much easier to justify the price or determine if it's a necessity or not. Obviously that's easier said than done. I think it would be a good accessory to have. I'm sure whoever decided to go with screws never realized the pain and effort required. Right now, the badminton supports, especially the throat seems like more of an afterthought (which we both know very well it was). Who's to say, that with a good option of mounting racquets, an already good reputation regarding product quality and excellent customer service from the likes of Mark from Alpha, that Stringway machines wouldn't become more of the norm rather than a niche? Most stringers these days acknowledge that hold-down mounting is the most effective for badminton, and also acknowledge that constant pull much more desirable. However, a machine like that, in the price range that most stringers are willing to spend does not exist. Perhaps, but it's partially because if I don't tighten them enough, the racquet can slide. I hate using grip to keep the racquet still because it takes a long time to mount and gets in the way of stringing, so I rather tighten the support. Also badminton racquets are way more fragile than tennis so it's a much better to be safe than sorry. I think on this board, there are only a handful of SW users so it's not surprising to me that this conversation has mostly been a private one. Like I said, for one reason or another, when it comes to badminton, SW machines are more niche than norm. The market is saturated with suspension mounting machines even though most users acknowledge hold-down is more desirable.
It is important to distinguish sliding of the system on the shaft and movement of the clamp at the top. Because there is a lot of “lever action” in the system there will always be movement without the block sliding. If the block really slides you can first degrease the shaft and the inside of the delrin sliding bock. On our demo the shafts are shinny like a mirror and the system still locks. This is always the discussion about something new. But because we manufacture many parts ourselves we do not need big quantities for a new item. We could make 100 pcs of the new clamping piece without a problem. It might be that tennis-stringers appreciate tools and handy tools more than badminton stringers for what ever reason. While some tools, like the cross stringers, offer more advantage with badminton then with tennis. The question is why; Is that because of the money or because badminton stringers like to use their basic skills more than tennis stringers? From a commercial point of view this is an interesting question? Also interesting to know, what kind of machines does the majority of the badminton stringers use: - Drop weight or Lock out? - Fixed clamps or flying clamps. - Price level 250 /400 / 500 / 500+ dollars? - Direct or indirect mounting ( inside or outside)? Because badminton racquets are much more vulnerable you would say that the indirect mountings do much more harm, especially because most outside mounting points are too much to the 3 / 9 o’clock position. The importance of accessories for a stringer will always depend on the price of the tool in relation to the price of the machine. It is very understandable that someone with a $ 250 machine is not willing to spend 70 euros on a cross stringer. One more question about the need to tighten the racquet so firmly: Do you use the V-block at the throat or do you use the “other way around” method?
Awesome Transplant, Valentinas!!! As long as the string is parallel to the tensioner, the pull is quite accurate.
I wouldn't call that a "small" modification. You bought a Pro's Pro Challenger 1. The only part remaining is the tensioner. Did you buy both machines or were you able to part it out?
Tensioner is slightly higher - but it is not a big problem. I am not a 360 degree table rotation fan as well. So this set-up is acceptible for now .
Well primarily, tennis stringers are of Caucasian ethnicity, badminton stringers are Asian. The spending habits of the latter on average are more conservative, so when something does not seem like a necessity, it's a lot less likely for them to purchase it. So yes to me it's money to scares them away. I would say more drop-weight for home owners. Probably 70:30. Almost all lock out and electronic for professional shops. Almost always flying clamps. Fixed clamps are usually just for starting mains and maybe tie-offs. Price is almost always under 100 for home users. About 250 for the people who settle and around 500 for those who want to spoil themselves. (Thus the most popular machines are either a basic dropweight or variations and equivalents of the Alpha Pioneer DC Pus and Revo4000. Not much choice here. Anyone buying the basic drop-weight usually gets a hold-down and anyone buying something expensive usually gets a suspension. (That's why to me, a good hold-down, constant pull machine, that has some decent consideration for badminton could very well in my mind become a very dominant one in the market of educated buyers) http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81107 http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63518 These two threads will show you that educated buyers are trying to find what we are trying to create. I use the "other way around" method because the V block can't be used Black Knight racquets which have a bigger throat. Found the paint chipped after I released the racquet. Also since it was recommended, and it does reduce the sliding a bit. Personally the throat adapters, although also painful are bearable because it's easier screwing tightening piece up a bar rather than a bar into a hole. Mounting the head is the worst of the whole mounting system.
I meant throat screws in that last paragraph, and that's for the "other way around" method so it's technically your head screws for a tennis racquet.
Fishmilk, I think that this is a nice and challenging project and perhaps we can have some kind of cooperation to create the best possible option within the Stringway possibilities. Where are you situated? If any other SW users would like to add their ideas they are welcome also. I would like to make one remark about the matter of the mounting: - Of course it looks very solid to use an outside support (6 point) mounting for badminton racquets. BUT what stringers do not notice is that the stress in the racquet material is considerably higher in such an indirect system as it is in a direct system. The bad thing about outside support is that the force of these supports has to be transferred from the position in the support to the position where the main strings pull (the worst moment occurs when all main strings are tensioned) It is not the deformation that hurts the racquet it is the stress. So in my opinion it is not the hold downs which are important the major difference is inside (direct) supports instead of outside supports. The graph below shows the stress in the racquet material with 3 different support systems, direct 2 and 3 point and 3 point indirect. As you can see the stress in the racquet goes up when the outside support is further away from the 12 o’clock position. This means that when you put a badminton racquets on a 6 point mounting system for tennis that the stress will be quite high. As you can see also, the lowest stress occurs on a 3 point system like the SW head support. Because a badminton racquet is wider at the throat, it is more logic to use the head mounting for the throatside. If anyone would like a simple proof of the difference between stress and deformation I will paste it in. It is very very simple to prove.
I have one more question about the sliding of the racquet. I assume that this happens when you tension the crosses? At what moment does that occur, after having done how many crosses? Does the racquet still lie against the insider supports after finishing it ? Or is their "room" between the support and the racquet??
I believe that that graph is for tennis racquets. As I can see from the graph the stress is almost the same for 3 point inside support system and 6 point outside system in case the supports are placed in "right" position on both systems. You have just proved that I have made good decision putting Stringway's tensioner on the Challenger 1 turntable. Now I have nice machine with symmetric supports allowing to string in any direction (both top-to-bottom and bottom-to -top), capable of using load spreaders, not blocking any strings and racquet is not sliding during cross strings tensioning.
Hi Valentinas, The graph shows that the stress in the racquet is minimum for a 3 point inside system and that the position of these support do not make much difference in stress. Even a very simple 2 point system at 60 mm is already quite good and easy to use. The prove for this is that you never hear any problems on a very simple systems of Ektelon and Prince Neos. The stress can be about the same on an outside system when the supports are in the right position. This means for a badminton racquet that you have to place the outside supports closer to the 12 o’clock position than to the 6 o’clock position, because a badminton racquet is much narrower at the head then on the throat. I assume that you can place the outside supports in different positions on your machine. I think that in general the inside support is better: - Because the forces of the main strings are directly supported by the supports. - On the outside support the narrow support on 12 o’clock does a lot of work and causes a lot of pressure between that support and the racquet. - The racquet is bended around central support which is very different with a 3 point supports with wide supports. - Because stringers can not place the supports in the wrong position on a direct support. Many stringers think that it is better to place the supports on a 6 point system near the 3 o’clock position, while the graph shows that the stress is much higher there. (The biggest mistake in the stringing machine world was the bar at the 3 / 9 o’clock position that prevented the racquet from getting wider.)
Yes I agree, I think we have a great product to work with. It just needs some tweaking to be made more badminton friendly. I'm located in Canada. I haven't been keeping track. A lot depends on the frame. Sometimes different frames have different properties and the exact same method doesn't work on all. Once in a while, a racquet will come out with room between the support and racquet. I try my best to keep the natural head shape of the racquet using proportional stringing. I would say it usually occurs in the later parts of cross stringing though. It's ok if the racquet deformed a little and gave it room between the support. That's why we try our best to use our stringing technique to counter this, but sliding should not happen and it really just needs some soft pads between the delrin (I'm assuming that's the material) and the racquet.
No the graph shows that the 6 point outside has a LOT more stress. I always found that the 6 point machines got in your way a lot more. More chance of string hooking on, harder to weave. I've gone from Stringway to Alpha Revo 4000 to Stringway again so I think I've wasted enough money to know what I'm talking about. That's personal preference. Fact is that while the outside supports help reduce your racquet getting wider, it doesn't do anything if it gets narrower. While the latter is more aesthetically pleasing than a circular racquet, doesn't mean it's any better. At the very least, I would change the 6 and 12 o'clock to a hold down mounting. That will protect the racquet from either deformation. Only then will you have reasonable protection from your mounting system. All you did right now is just make it faster to mount. Not increase the safety for the racquet.
Perhaps we have to open a new threat called something like “developing the perfect badminton machine” so that also people who do not trigger on the “laserfibre” brand will join. Could be an interesting discussion. As shown by the machine modification of distanc3 it is difficult to understand the mechanics during string and the effect on the racquet. It is a compliment to the racquet manufacturer that the racquet do not crack anymore. About the sliding: I would like to introduce an item that is very often discussed in tennis stringing while badminton stringers tend to neglect it: There are 2 effects when the racquets moves away from the inside supports: - The racquet is getting longer than it was so extra stress is introduced into the racquet. - The pressure on the supports is is not there anymore so the shape of the racquet does not keep it in place anymore, causing the sliding. My advise is to string the crosses 1 to 1,5 kg lower on a racquet of which you know that it gets longer. For the stress during playing it is better to string the crosses a little too low then too high anyway. One of the intensions of our Tension Advisor system for Tennis is to get the right relation between the tensions for mains and crosses to obtain the minimum stress in the racquet. We can see if our calculations can be used for badminton also.
