There could be too much proprietary secrets that they choose not to reveal too much. So far we have seen them having most decisions acceptable. If however the real secret behind the scene is indeed what one may think it is all manual and relying on replays, it needs an insider to reveal the scam.
Hawkeye. Not infallible.
- Thread starter Maklike Tier
- Start date
visor
Regular Member
You guys think too much of conspiracy theories... When it first started, maybe for half a year or so, the Hawkeye video replays didn't match actual real life replays, but after that, it did very much match.
However having said that, if you read online discussions of the workings of Hawkeye in the tennis world, there's mention of a error tolerance or margin of error of up to 2.2 mm for a fast moving ball. So when you see those razor hair thin Hawkeye calls in or out, they are actually not 100% sure but just basing it on probabilities.
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However having said that, if you read online discussions of the workings of Hawkeye in the tennis world, there's mention of a error tolerance or margin of error of up to 2.2 mm for a fast moving ball. So when you see those razor hair thin Hawkeye calls in or out, they are actually not 100% sure but just basing it on probabilities.
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Ouchie
Regular Member
The final animation from hawkeye data was a relatively recent introduction. I remember watching live at the All England when somebody behind a video monitor had to stand up and hold a big card with IN or OUT written on it. It was a bit of a joke to see but that did not diminish the impact the system had on making correct calls. You may doubt a line judge, you should, they are human, don't have eye tests and do not do it professionally. I know one who regularly did All England duties and his glasses are THICK so no matter how much of a nice guy he is I trust a high performance camera more than a myopic volunteer.
I find it easier to believe hawk-eye is a system with 10 high speed, high definition cameras, a simple computer using basic maths to plot the 3D position of a shuttle and project the path using more basic maths. This is not rocket science, or maybe a little, it is the same as missile tracking, that is simply locating an object in a space over a number of points in time and extrapolating the point of contact with a constant flat area, the floor. Over time the amount of historical data increases and this helps build better data models, better projections and better conclusions. Whilst line judges get tired, thirsty, fidgety, distracted, more myopic; hawk-eye gets better.
I find it easier to believe hawk-eye is a system with 10 high speed, high definition cameras, a simple computer using basic maths to plot the 3D position of a shuttle and project the path using more basic maths. This is not rocket science, or maybe a little, it is the same as missile tracking, that is simply locating an object in a space over a number of points in time and extrapolating the point of contact with a constant flat area, the floor. Over time the amount of historical data increases and this helps build better data models, better projections and better conclusions. Whilst line judges get tired, thirsty, fidgety, distracted, more myopic; hawk-eye gets better.
Ouchie
Regular Member
This raises a question that no professional sporting body (e.g. tennis, cricket) has tried to answer or maybe they have by doing nothing. The videos that show a ball/shuttle was in or out by less than the error margin is where the problems are. Can a shuttle be 1mm in or out or should the rally be replayed to avoid all possibility of doubt?
visor
Regular Member
There's no math involved, it's not rocket science, no number crunching... just machine learning with lots and lots of historical data from lots of camera angles.
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visor
Regular Member
Yeah, those 0.5mm cork overlap with the line or just outside the line, those are ones one must have deep faith in the system... because it's still way within the error margin.
But understandably, they can't call a let because that would cast doubt on the system, on which the umpires depend... which would then cast doubt on the umpires...
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@phihag
Sorry to have disturbed. I think I need to ask some questions here. I was watching that men's singles semi-finals match of Koki Watanabe versus Li Shifeng. Well the umpire suddenly called for play let after Koki Watanabe scored a point. Koki Watanabe was so shocked as the umpire called the sudden play let. After that Koki Watanabe went to ask the umpire why the play let is called. Then the umpire said that Li Shifeng is not ready to play so play let is called despite the point being scored. That particular incident clearly affected Koki Watanabe and it caused him to lose that entire match. Even Koki Watanabe coach, Keita Matsuda went to see the tournament officials to appeal but to no avail.
My question here is can there be a play let after the player score a point with the reason given as the opponent is not ready. In this example how come Li Shifeng is said as not ready when Koki Watanabe have scored the point because Li Shifeng had even hit the shuttle in the rally until Koki Watanabe scored the point. So can this kind of play let be allowed during tournament time?
Often time I find umpires wrong decision during tournament time as baffling and has certainly affected the players winning chances.
So I will say that Li Shifeng win over Koki Watanabe is really invalid today because refereeing errors occurred many times throughout the tournaments. So what is your opinion about this issue? Any idea?
Sorry to have disturbed. I think I need to ask some questions here. I was watching that men's singles semi-finals match of Koki Watanabe versus Li Shifeng. Well the umpire suddenly called for play let after Koki Watanabe scored a point. Koki Watanabe was so shocked as the umpire called the sudden play let. After that Koki Watanabe went to ask the umpire why the play let is called. Then the umpire said that Li Shifeng is not ready to play so play let is called despite the point being scored. That particular incident clearly affected Koki Watanabe and it caused him to lose that entire match. Even Koki Watanabe coach, Keita Matsuda went to see the tournament officials to appeal but to no avail.
My question here is can there be a play let after the player score a point with the reason given as the opponent is not ready. In this example how come Li Shifeng is said as not ready when Koki Watanabe have scored the point because Li Shifeng had even hit the shuttle in the rally until Koki Watanabe scored the point. So can this kind of play let be allowed during tournament time?
Often time I find umpires wrong decision during tournament time as baffling and has certainly affected the players winning chances.
So I will say that Li Shifeng win over Koki Watanabe is really invalid today because refereeing errors occurred many times throughout the tournaments. So what is your opinion about this issue? Any idea?
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stradrider
Regular Member
Is there a video? Something has happened but what is difficult to understand by the description.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/av58267636/
The video for that semi finals match between Koki Watanabe and Li Shifeng is here.
@phihag @stradrider
The commentator for the match kept repeating this sentence. Koki Watanabe is probably is trying to do all the best he can to stay focus since he is mentally disturbed by unfair line calls going against him. Well even the commentators commenting the match can see this clearly. I mean how come such a thing can happen in tournaments? Where is the fairness? How come can have such unfair bias judging during tournament time? This thing happened right at the beginning at the first set itself at point 3 : 7 Li Shifeng is leading 7 - 3 at that time and came the horrible play let. By right it should have been 7 - 4 but umpire said play let. Then it disturbed Koki Watanabe mentally and the whole match done spiral downwards for him. Just for clarification here I am not a great fan of any Japanese players nor am I a great fan of Koki Watanabe here. I am saying this because I don't understand how come unfair judging and bias keeps happening during tournament time?
The commentator for the match kept repeating this sentence. Koki Watanabe is probably is trying to do all the best he can to stay focus since he is mentally disturbed by unfair line calls going against him. Well even the commentators commenting the match can see this clearly. I mean how come such a thing can happen in tournaments? Where is the fairness? How come can have such unfair bias judging during tournament time? This thing happened right at the beginning at the first set itself at point 3 : 7 Li Shifeng is leading 7 - 3 at that time and came the horrible play let. By right it should have been 7 - 4 but umpire said play let. Then it disturbed Koki Watanabe mentally and the whole match done spiral downwards for him. Just for clarification here I am not a great fan of any Japanese players nor am I a great fan of Koki Watanabe here. I am saying this because I don't understand how come unfair judging and bias keeps happening during tournament time?
stradrider
Regular Member
I didn't see any let at 7:3 in the first set.. There was a close line call at 3:6 on the far line that Watanabe tried to protest to the umpire, but the decision was not overruled.
This seems to be off topic, may be it is better to create a new thread?
Thanks there is a play let called during the tournament. I forget which part is it. A play let called during the first set of the match.
@stradrider
Obviously Koki Watanabe is badly affected by the bad line calls and then also the play let after Koki Watanabe scored a point in the first set. That caused Koki Watanabe to be mentally disturbed as mentioned by the commentators in the match and it affected his whole match and caused him to lose the match.
Obviously Koki Watanabe is badly affected by the bad line calls and then also the play let after Koki Watanabe scored a point in the first set. That caused Koki Watanabe to be mentally disturbed as mentioned by the commentators in the match and it affected his whole match and caused him to lose the match.
@stradrider
Play let at point 5 - 11 after the interval break. Koki Watanabe scored a point but it was called play let.
Play let at point 5 - 11 after the interval break. Koki Watanabe scored a point but it was called play let.
stradrider
Regular Member
Found it, was at 11:5. Watanabe didn't win the point, let was called right after the service - Li Shifeng stopped playing right away but Koki Watanabe continued, seems he didn't hear it. Players didn't wait for the announcement after the break - they can only start after umpire says "play", he didn't even look at the court when they started... Commentators also explained it the same way. Umpire seemed to do a very good job in this match, not sure why do you think he didn't..
Well the play let was called after Koki Watanabe scored the point. I mean it is a bit unfair to call play let at such a time after the player had scored the point.
But you could be right as well. Umpire over rule it saying Koki played before he is told to play. But still this is a very ambiguous and vague decision. Anyway thank you for your explanation and I begin to understand the situation clearer now. Thanks.
stradrider
Regular Member
The let was called right after service just before Li lifted, watch again.
Thank you very much. I think I get your point already. Maybe Koki Watanabe did not catch what the umpire say or he didn't hear it because he is too eager to play. But somehow those decisions have affected Koki Watanabe all the way till he lose the match. Even his coach Keita Matsuda went to appeal to the tournament referee but to no avail. Somehow the incident disrupted Koki Watanabe all the way till the match is over.