Elbow movement during smash

Double post.

 

No1. If the shuttle is more above you, keep the position of the upper arm relative to the shoulder the same and reach up higher by tilting your upper body more. You should always be able to push your hand forwards with max. effort without pain or discomfort. You can test that against a wall. Elbow too high (relative to your shoulder) and you'll both lose power and risk injury.

PS that ceiling looks super low for badminton must be hard to play even slightly defensive there

 

I have heard two conflicting thing re that. I've heard that pros do that sometimes, tilting to get higher.. And that might be the proper pro way. Though i've also heard it said that if they are doing that tilting then it's because they're not in the ideal position.. and it's a bit awkward, it's a little bit towards their round the head side but not quite round the head, and they want to take it a bit like a forehand), so it's kind of in between a round the head and a forehand. So hence their arm is almost outstretched, as if it were on the forehand side, but their body is tilting as if a round the head. If the shuttle were slightly more towards their forehand side they'd do a forehand and if the shuttle was slightly more to their round the head side they'd do a round the head. So it's more a question of their positioning not being ideal? Ideal perhaps being if it was on the forehand side and no tilt required. In between being a bit awkward, without a name, may or may not be preferable to a round the head, but not preferable to a forehand.

Can we even know whether they'd rather it were on their forehand side, vs they've intentionally positioned themselves there for the extra height?

As a curiosity, how about not moving quite so near (in the sideways axis), to the shuttle, and then, how about taking it round the head? One would lose a bit of the height one could get, but perhaps the swing would be less awkward? (besides that it's easier to recover if doing a round the head on the round the head side of the court, as you are nearer the centre / where you need to recover to), it's also maybe more balanced?

Also, i'd note that while it is the case that hitting the shuttle at a higher point does give more potential steepness, the player still has to get the racket over the shuttle and angled such that it gets that steepness. I've no doubt that a lot of the time, a factor in lacking steepness is the racket angle. And I think if you are trying to stretch to get that extra inch, we're perhaps not talking a huge difference in potential steepness, and if not stretching that extra inch, it'd still be reaching high, and any lack of steepness is more down to the racket face angle on contact.

Also, if one is so keen on stretching up high by even tilting to get that little bit of extra height, why not jump?

 

You're conflicting several things.
Easiest point first - players do jump and 'tilt' their upper body. You're always going for the best angle you can get while maintaining proper biomechanics (in regards to power, injury prevention,...). The extra few inches do make a difference - and it's biomechanically advantageous to slightly tilt the axis of your shoulders so your upper body rotation factors into the movement more efficiently. The degree to which you tilt your shoulders is going to be individual, based on your biomechanics.
Regarding the question of where to play the shuttle - we're talking about a smash here, so you'll always want to play it in the best possible position relative to your body. So no, going for a full round-the-head shot where the shuttle is on the non-racket side of your head is never going to be the preferred option as it severely limits your power compared to having it further towards your racket hand side. Coincidentally, I just watched a JJS video a short while ago where he says something similar about the recovery after a shot, and that you should prefer moving out a bit further and landing in a balanced position to saving yourself a few cm of movement by contorting yourself and potentially throwing off your balance when you land.

Lastly, regarding your first statement (conflicting stories about why/when pros tilt their shoulders) - I'd guess this were brief remarks with not a lot of context. First off, any decent player will have a slight shoulder tilt on any shot they take high. That tilt increases the further you move to a round the head position, and reduce the further the shuttle drops and moves to a deep forehand position. The amount of tilt is in question, not whether you angle your shoulders at all - and I think it should be close to 45° on a full-on power smash. You're not contorting your entire upper body too much, you can translate your upper body rotation well into a racket movement, you get a slightly better angle than keep your shoulders horizontal (keep in mind it's not just the couple of cm your racket shoulder sits higher, but also the better upper arm angle enabled by tilting your shoulders a bit, it is a significant difference altogether).

 

Your video example is very interesting, but not ideal because it includes a scissor kick, and I think that can involve a natural tilt that happens as the non-racket foot comes back..

It could be preferred because it means you are nearer the centre. Even though sure you may lose some power.

This is a totally different point. 'cos the point about doing a Round the head shot is related to sideways movement to recover. And this is about front-back movement..

Everybody agrees you can get more power when you are more behind it. And all agree not to contort the back.

And all agree that if your momentum is going back (as a result of doing a scissor and not being far behind it, then it's not good).. The guy in your video doesn't mention about momentum going back, but his momentum is going back when he demonstrates what not to do.

Most say to move behind it, even LJB says so, LJB points out also the advantage that you can see your opponents position as well as the shuttle , when sufficiently behind it.

I have heard of players not getting that far behind it, as an intentional thing..(not with momentum going back..and not with a scissor)

Something like this, what Peter Gade does here, perhaps so they have less distance to move forward to recover. Done with no scissor kick as here. (see at that time frame)

www(dot)youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=AYp6NcO7hEs

I don't know if that tilt is mainly related to there being a scissor kick though..

Do you have any example of it being done without a scissor kick?

Also, if it was largely to reach higher, , and e.g. you speak of better upper arm angle , i'd imagine that to reach higher with a tilt, the racket would then be not so far out from his shoulder. If it was so much about gaining height and e.g. a very high reaching upper arm angle, then I'd guess that the upper arm would be , I don't want to say it, but much nearer his ear than his is ;-) (though not near brushing his ear!). But where he plays it is quite far out still.. So maybe the tilt is not an attempt to reach as high as possible, but something that is happening as a result of the scissor kick as the non-racket foot comes back.

 

Look at any slow-mo of Fu Haifeng or Lin Dan smashing, to start off. Their racket shoulder is always above the other one, Fu has an almost vertical upper arm as a result. The elbow is nowhere near the ear because the head is also moving to the side as a result of the upper body/shoulder movement. Quick note - the shoulder angle is not achieved by keeping a neutral spine and then lifting one shoulder (at least not just that), but by slightly tilting the entire rib cage to the side (which allows for much greater chest muscle involvement in the movement).
Look at almost any jump smash of any pro - even when they have time and are basically waiting for the shuttle, they will lean their upper body slightly sideways. Yoo Yeon Seong is a somewhat extreme example in terms of low shoulder mobility (or it's just his technique, who knows), Ahsan would be yet another example to look at.
Anyway, best way to get used to the right movement and position - get a rubber band tied to something behind you, grab it, try to reach high and then find the position where it's easiest to hold that position. I guarantee you it's not going to be with perfectly level shoulders or your elbow anywhere near your ear

 

I guess if they don't jump smash and don't do a scissors?

 

The smash trunk/torso movement for maximum power is similar to a cricket bowling action (for a fast/pace bowler, not a spinner of course).

The bowler/player rotates on a tilted axis to get the maximum power. Part of that is by tilting the spine to allow the shoulder joint to have the freedom to have the arm reach up vertically.

In cricket, it is important to get it vertically for accuracy reasons and also for consistent power; in-out/out-in paths are less stable, and if sideways enough, it becomes a slinging action which is considered incredibly hard to maintain accuracy with (a notable bowler, Malinga, is well famed because he managed it though. If you watch his action, it looks uncontrolled!)

It should be relatively obvious that maximum power is not achieved by doing a 180 movement around the vertical axis (i.e. swinging the racquet parallel to the floor). It's also obvious that maximum power isn't achieved by keeping having zero trunk rotation around that vertical axis. You need both to adjust to the biomechanical limitations of our bodies/joints/muscles in order to achieve maximum power.

 

What?

If you want to see power smashes without jumps, you'll have to look at WS or WD. Still a very noticeable shoulder angle. Still, the elbow isn't even close to the ear. Still using upper body rotation.

 

I am not arguing for an elbow close to the ear nor have I ever, so can we forget about that idea?

In the screenshot from the video of Peter Gade hitting it, there's no shoulder tilt.

At 4:25, video of Peter Gade vs. Christin Tsai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYp6NcO7hEs

I showed it already but here again, I don't see a tilt there, do you?



I notice here(below, against lin dan) , a forehand shot, with no scissors, (so, what i'm looking for), the racket shoulder is quite a bit higher, but the torso is barely tilted, maybe 10 degrees? I think that'd support what you're saying of a tilt.

www.youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=kPC-CBqOllo

 

He is doing clears and at 4:28, a drop..

From what I understand, if doing an overhead shot, it should be the same action until the end, so your opponent doesn't know what you are going to do, whether you are going to do a drop clear or smash. . Rather than tilting the torso specifically for a smash, which would give away what shot was to be played wouldn't it?

(though thinking about it, i'm sure when even the pros play sometimes you know they're going to smash it! so maybe when a smash is the best shot, then the deception of keeping the action the same till the end, goes out the window.. unless perhaps they are keeping it the same till the end and I predict it because it's the best shot choice at that time)

But anyhow, I didn't show a smash, just those overhead shots because I thought the action would be the same till the end, rather than smashes having a torso tilt and non-smashes not.

 

So might that suggest that either the shoulder tilt more of a compensation for when it is towards the round the head side..
Or
That the tilt is ideal/preferred, but the forehand side is not because one can't tilt when there?

DH has suggested that some tilt brings some mechanical advantage in terms of power.

So then would that mean that if it's on the forehand side to the extent where there's no tilt or almost no tilt, then that's not ideal in terms of power?

So would that mean that ideal for power(though not always possible), is if the shuttle is over your head area and you tilt making it in line with your shoulder once tilted, and that's the ideal position for power?

 

So if a tilt is favourable eg for reach, then would that mean that hitting it on the forehand side where no tilt is possible, or only a very marginal tilt is possible, is not ideal / not preferable?

 

Not necessarily isn't a good description because it doesn't tell me much.

As for the video you mention, It's a long video, i've probably seen it a few times, I don't know exactly what part of it you are referring to.