Doubles- moving from attack to defense (with weaker player)

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by HN52354, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Found this video by Paul that's quite helpful in case anyone else has similar problems
     
    ralphz likes this.
  2. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    london
    Also perhaps worth bearing in mind that in badminton there's that strange terminology that comes from who knows where, which is that when they refer to a player as "weak" it seems to be a euphemism for "rubbish" rather than physically weak. Personally I think "rubbish" is politer, particularly if it's a guy, and of course it's clearer what is being said, but anyhow!
     
  3. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    New Zealand
    So I couldn't quite implement the strategies yesterday since I only had 2 games partnered with her and spent the rest of the time with other partners. Like I said, she has a bit of an ego problem so need to wait until we lose a couple games before she'd probably be willing to try my suggestions

    BUT... I visited a great club tonight and made an interesting observation. I played doubles with people around the same level as me and the games were so much smoother compared to when I play with my Saturday mixed ability group. I thought the latter would be easier since there's weaker players. I have a couple different theories for this:
    • Since everyone was around the same level, there were minimal errors and points were won through tactic/placement and speed
    • People were more experienced and knew how/when to rotate --> good synergy since you knew what to expect from each other
    • More 'predictable' shots e.g. knew they would smash after a lift so it was easier to defend since we could anticipate what was next
    Mixed skill level doubles can be harder because:
    • Don't always know if your partner will get the shot (speed, might miss, or lack communication about who should get it)
    • If they do get the shot, they might make an error or place it somewhere you'll easily get killed by the opponent
    • They might not be familiar with rotations/positioning --> more gaps/ have to cover more area
    • Might not have good communication --> you might get the shot too late and not have enough time to position yourself or think about where to best place it
    • Basically, easier to lose points through errors but also easier to score points through errors
    Been able to learn a couple things from my reflection which both partners can work on- communication and discussing expectations with each other! Seems like the easiest thing to work on to improve your game since you can't expect each other to suddenly get better :)
     
  4. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,688
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Location:
    on court no. 1
    @HN52354

    You posted a video in a different thread (Post videos of yourself playing). Are these players your group you mention here? What do you mean with her ego problem?
     
  5. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    330
    Location:
    Indonesia
    i think ego mean doesnt accept advice or suggestion or strategy & just think of themself. They just want to play with their own way & sometimes in gigantic ego they think they are good & fault their partner for every mistake.
    Or they just stuborn & hard headed dont want to listen others. They cage in themself. This is me, this is my skill level, & thats it. Dont ask me for more but accept me as it is. Me is me you is you.
     
    Cheung and HN52354 like this.
  6. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    london
    of course..

    And many good players won't even go near a club that accepts rubbish players.. Those are joke games. Everything is different.

    Look for clubs that describe themselves as "intermediate" level upwards, and so won't accept "beginners".(read- rubbish players)

    As for communication.. that's a major factor and affects things at intermediate level too.

    And bear in mind that lots of intermediate players have had no coaching and don't know the basic principles that are taught on what the right shot is, or correct positioning, but some of them can still get around the court and hit a shot that puts opponents under pressure.. and are good at reading the game.

    And many have had years of coaching, and know the principles of what the right shot is.

    And some intermediates can communicate and some can't.
     
    #26 ralphz, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  7. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    New Zealand
    @ucantseeme Yup mostly the same except the guy I was referring to as '4' wasn't there. The guy with the black shoes on the opposite court had a long break and this was his first time back so made a lot of errors (takes the place of '4'). '1' + 'returning guy' didn't have as much communication as 1+4 and usually '4' plays front court (more like mixed doubles style).

    At 2:00 in the video it's exactly the situation I was describing where I'm not exactly sure when to move back and her back court shot gets killed.
    Yup exactly what @Budi said. She has blamed me for ducking instead of getting similar kill shots (I don't want to get smashed in the face)

    @ralphz yup you're right. I convinced a beginner/low intermediate friend to visit the club with me (was her first time playing in a club). She told me she didn't enjoy the mixed doubles we played together because her partner seemed annoyed at her and kept telling her to go to the front. I had to explain to her that in mixed doubles it's normal for the woman to be at the front since guys tend to be physiologically faster/stronger (he was also way better than her but didn't say that lol).
     
  8. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,688
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Location:
    on court no. 1
    I can understand her. In average club level it is called "mixed doubles" to place the woman all the time at the net. It's clearly not mixed doubles. As somebody who play mixed doubles since years with a fixed partner and got specific mixed doubles training, I can tell that this is the method how somebody want to win a game without involving the female much. IMO mixed doubles is very tactical, you have different rotations for the male and the female. The female need excellent reading skills in the front court, a superb defence/counter attack etc. to get the attack place it into gaps to provoke the lift.

    I would also say that this kind of playing is very dangerous for the female, especially for somebody who is brave and can't take care of herself. I played douzens of games where I smashed females in her face. Glasses flying around the court, hitting hard close to the eye, bruises on throat or chest...I don't mention this to show how badass I am. It's more my experience how dangerous it is when males place a female all the way at the net. Even the male is strong, they will be unable to only play shots down. Trust me, I know how to prevent this. For me in training/club nights a totally no go. Even if I need to play with a significant weaker female, I would always play level doubles for two reasons.

    1. As the better player on court it is more important to me give somebody the chance to improve/discover their weakness instead of winning a meaningless club night game and bring somebody into a potential dangerous situations for their health. If I want to win, I will work hard, but will never ask somebody to stand in the front all the way. If I want to win but can't treat my partner as a equal person with respect, I should refuse to play.

    2. Mixed doubles needs much more personal rotations, specific solutions and asks the female for some skills, which you will never find in a beginner female. If you think as a guy you are such a stallion on court and need to suppress the female in such manner, you should better play MS, you are not that type of guy who should play mixed doubles or something what you think should be mixed doubles. I worship my female partner the same way as a male in MD and see her as equal. Never forget the lady is at chess the strongest.
     
    #28 ucantseeme, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
    HN52354 and LenaicM like this.
  9. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    USA
    If you are the “better” player in a pair, the only scenario that a “unbalanced” match is better than a balanced one is you can take advantage of the weaker player(s) of the other team. Even this is debatable as the quality of the match may be too bad to be rewarding.

    If you are the worse player in a pair however, such a match could be a very good learning opportunity as you likely will receive larger than normal share of shots from better players.
     
    HN52354 likes this.
  10. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    USA
    Yep, here female players will simply tell their male partners that they want to “doubles” as opposed to “mixed doubles” to announce their preference. It’s very normal and guys almost always oblige (whether that will win them games is a different story :p but again, people care about different things when playing)
     
    HN52354 and ucantseeme like this.
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    london
    It would be better if they at least learnt the correct term. As far as I know, "Levels" is the correct term for when it's not playing mixed
     
    ucantseeme likes this.
  12. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    USA
    We are talking about USA aka badminton desert :) Once my colleague asked me how I sprained my ankle, she was incredulous when I told her it was when playing badminton. In people’s mind here, badminton is what people play in their backyard with plastic shuttles:)
     
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,869
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    I think you had better give up on this person as a lost cause. Better to avoid playing with her totally as her insight into the game is too low and dangerous. She doesn’t sound like the flexible sort of character who is considerate of her partner either.
     
    HN52354 likes this.
  14. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,688
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Location:
    on court no. 1
    If I need to oblige somebody to something she don't want, I put myself over my partner in every aspect. That is for me not an enviroment for both to enjoy the game. That's for me one of the most important aspects in doubles. If I can't enjoy it with a partner together and need to oblige my partner to make it a better game for myself, I should refuse to play.
     
    HN52354 likes this.
  15. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Hmm you guys have given me a lot to consider now (in a good way haha). Don't want to damage any friendships but you're right that I should also take care of myself and be able to enjoy it.

    In terms of my friend who played the mixed doubles at the club, the guy could've said it a bit nicer and taken time to explain why it would be an advantage for her to be at the front. Honestly though, we were playing womens doubles before that and I also told my friend to take front. She's not bad with drives since her reflexes are pretty good but she can't even do a clear... I mean, even when she's hitting from mid court she can't clear to the back... So since we were playing a more competitive game, I think it's fair to go on what the strengths/weaknesses are.

    I can totally see why it would be dangerous for her to be at the front where she can get smashed. For this game we were all considerate enough to aim smashes towards gaps. If I was at the front, then I held off from smashes/kills and made it a goal to win through a good net shot, especially a cross court shot (also good practice for me). I'll give her tips on how to keep herself safe e.g. hold racket up in front of her face. Although, I doubt she'll be in the same situation again. The club organizers have a better idea of our levels and after that game she was placed in less intense games more towards her level (coincidentally all the beginners were female).

    I played a lot more mixed games (gender wise) that night and they were positive experiences. No one ever told me I should be at the front just because I'm a girl. Almost all the games I played were "level" because my partner and I were similar. There was only one game where we started level but after a few points I offered to take front because I knew he was better at back court and we were playing competitively.

    Btw for future reference since the terms are fairly new to me, how do you differentiate between mixed doubles (gender) and mixed doubles style (one player tends to be front and one player tends to be back)?
    Similarly when you're playing level but want to differentiate if it's all women or mixed gender?
     
  16. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    330
    Location:
    Indonesia
    never argue with a girl. You wont be & never be able to win agains them in argument.... Lol....:p

    its all depend on what kind of shot do you play with agains weaker opponent. Sometimes its argueable do we bully the weaker or not. I myself had this argument & didnt realize that as i dont want to bully the weaker, i return the shuttle right at the good player so its very obvious i didnt aim the weak one. But many times it kill myself & give easy shuttle to the good one all the time. So now my thinking is like this.
    1. I will aim for open space as the other side carry beginner to, there will be open space to put the shuttle. This would give preasure to the good one to cover the weak, the same as i do.
    2. Many times i will play my non dominant skill. So i could learn & train my bad skill while also having fun. Yes, sometimes i will toying the weak one. Can be said i was bullying them but its not to as it also a good practice for them, afterall i didnt use my best Ace card agains them. My not so precise net play agains theirs not so good kill on the net. So i wouldnt say i bully them, tho sometimes i will use Ace smash 1 or 2 times, but before that i always tell my opponent weak target to be ready for smash so they could prepare themself & hone their mental & reflex.
     
  17. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    london
    There are only two conventional styles (Not sure if maybe pros can sometimes do some unusual positioning that hasn't yet flitered down to clubs, but it'd still be some variation of those two)

    There is no "front-back" or "sides" that applies for the whole game.. Anybody that thinks there is doesn't know how to play badminton (which is a lot of club players).

    There two conventional styles, are Levels(what some call 'mens' 'cos they don't know the term 'levels'), or Mixed

    There is no proper/serious style where the women is playing at the front all the time i.e. when you are always in attack. Because when one or the other player lifts or clears, then the player at the front can get smashed at. It's not safe for them and it's too hard to defend.

    Note that there's a difference between being sides with one player slightly in front (which can happen when defending, it's not front-back), compared to one player being at the front (when attacking so front back.. That's still not a permanent sides arrangement, or a permanent front-back arrangement. So it doesn't make sense to say at the start "are we playing sides or front-back". . If a partner says that to me in a club, I know it's a joke game 'cos they don't know much about how to play.

    But it takes training to be able to do it. Everything in badminton really takes training/coaching. Positioning.. What shots you are meant to play.. Mens doubles positioning. Mixed positioning.

    And joke positioning that can't really be taught easily 'cos it is so non-standard e.g. If two players A,B are sides(Because one of them lifted), and "A" can hardly move back and stands there not moving, or gets completely caught, sees they can't get it, and stands there, as if to say "oh ***", then "B" could shoot across the court and behind them and take their shot. Especially if it's a lefty and righty and it's A's backhand/RTH side, and "B'"s forehand. If "B" can do it without clashing physically or personally! Not possible if a player is rubbish and goes for everything.

    I saw that at an intermediate level where both partners knew proper positioning, but one was left handed one right handed, one was too far forward, "A", the righty in the left box, got caught out for some reason(and they're not county level..).. he was in the left box, it was his RTH side he stood and watched as it went over him into the back left corner, and he knew he couldn't get it and watched it and didn't try. His left handed partner "B", went across the court took it on the forehand and the rally continued.
     
    #37 ralphz, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
    HN52354 and ucantseeme like this.
  18. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,688
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Location:
    on court no. 1
    The front court player role is much more important in doubles and a lot people don't credit the net play much. If somebody can't clear from the midcourt, how should this person excel in the front court? I don't get this.

    If your partner is unable to be enough for you to play level doubles and don't fit into that competitive game, it is better to don't include her or play level doubles with her and accept that this won't be the game you want. Teaching other people crappy tactics to make it better for yourself is a no go. Doubt that anybody who can't clear from the midcourt has some strength to catch up in a competitive game.

    Even in level doubles it's possible due shot selection and tactic to get the prefered person to the front. I have seen women who will never learn to play something effective from the back, because others prevent them to make experiences in this area, because the club night game is more important than giving others the chance to learn. A simple simple flick serve will make the whole pair struggle.

    Nobody will tend to be in the front and one in the back. It's just and advance and more complex way to play level doubles. I suggest to learn to play a proper level doubles as base for serious mixed doubles. Otherwise you will slip fast in average club play in the woman at the net which can't play the back. After that I also recommend to just play mixed doubles with a friendly and worshipping advance mixed doubles male. There is a lot untruth which is spread in doubles and for mixed doubles the people who don't have a clue to play a proper level doubles spread more rubbish about mixed.

    To your question: Despite the service of the male situation and that the male take a slightly more area at the back and the female a slightly more area at the net you will have the same mechanism like in doubles. It's also common tactic in mixed doubles to push the female in the backcourt and pull the male to the net. A simple flick serve to the female does here the trick or playing between both when they are in attack. IMO the female should be able to play the rear and have 2-3 solutions to play shots which make a rotation with the male possible. One important shot is the cross clear in several variations. My female partner can also play deceptive drop shots and can smash to hit sometimes winners or create weak returns and has some reading skills. As you can see a mixed doubles require a bunch skills from the lady and very well communication. To learn them, you should play a decent level doubles first. That's nothing for beginners or normal social club players to benefit in a club night. That's for a pair which wants to play and train specific mixed doubles and play it at competitions, tournaments and league games sucessfully, because these games are much more meaningful than a club night game with a random partner.
     
    HN52354 likes this.
  19. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Ah I see. Must be a fairly common misconception or people are doing it to win easily which further reinforces it.

    I think it might've been because it was only the second game in a new club and they hadn't quite judged our level or thought we wanted to play together.

    Also, I was wondering why other intermediates don't communicate and say "yours" or "mine"?
    I get that if you're a pro maybe you know who'll take it. Normally I'm the one that will communicate so maybe my partner doesn't have a chance to? I also understand that it doesn't happen often because usually the positioning makes it clear who'll get it but I've watched games that could've benefited from communication yet no one says anything?
     
  20. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    london
    When it's ambiguous whose it is then call for it so you don't clash, like it is in between you.

    But often it's clear from position, and it's not just the pros that know whose it is. Many intermediates have had coaching and understand it's theirs.

    Also it can put your partner off to shout YOURS when they are about to hit it.

    I sometimes deliberately don't hit it ,if my partner from nowhere near, shouts YOURS when it's clearly mine. And I tell them not to do that and why.

    You can shout SIDES to alert your partner that you did a defensive clear, or, if your partner's positioning isn't that good and they would like to know where to go and don't know, then shouting TAKE THE BACK, or TAKE THE FRONT. But once positioned, it's clear who is responsible for where. And notice that in all those cases, it's calling the position, which is long before they hit it.

    You are positioned where you are , and they where they are, for a reason.

    -You- may need to be told when it is yours, but don't tell a good player, when it is clear from positioning.

    To some rubbish players, any good intermediate player might look like a pro. But just because they know it's theirs doesn't mean they are a pro. They're just good enough to know when it's theirs.

    And sometimes at intermediate level, a player doesn't know his positioning well, but there are two solutons to that.. one is to call, but a more long term solution is the two players have a conversation afterwards about it, and then they know and don't have to call. A lot of good play is about 'chemistry', not like running around a battlefield yelling, like "saving private ryan". and it's good if players can learn that knowing when it's theirs from position and being in the right positions.
     
    #40 ralphz, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
    HN52354 likes this.

Share This Page